D&D General What's wrong with Perception?

[DND_Reborn]

This is related to the fact that a lot of skills are basically trash & PCs don't have the budget for trash skills. Perception is almost always going to be useful to some degree. How often have you seen entire campaigns run without ever having someone use medicine/nature/handle animal history or performane? Out of the times those skills even come up in a campaign are they regularly important to any degree? Sure bob might tame a wild animal or use handle animal with a horse but was a possible failure going to have much more impact than "ok.. moving on" or something in even half of those cases?

Oh, I don't know. I think you have a point, but I don't think it is as strong as you might feel (at least not to me... shrug).

I see Medicine and Nature used fairly regularly, History sometimes but we use it for things like heraldry, etc., and Performance is only useful for role-play more than anything else, and then it often doesn't really matter IME.

However, out of those, only Medicine is really important at all. The others can be used or not and such is life.

Perception is probably better, but a lot depends on the build and the PC's role in the party IME. Like I wrote above, about half the PCs in the games I've DMed or played in don't have proficiency in Perception.

Now, that isn't to say it isn't important, because the flip side is saying half the PCs DO have it! Out of 18 skills, nothing is as commonly taken. Probably Athletics is a close second IME, just due to grapples and shoves more than actually climbing or anything, although that does come up nearly each session. After that, we see Stealth and Survival often enough as well!

There is a, uh, perception (no pun intended) among players that proficiency in a skill you don't have a strong ability score in is a waste of time. It's not accurate, but I've played under DM's who set fairly high DC's for things, so I could understand a character not wanting to use one of their few skill picks to grab Athletics if they have low Strength.

And while the answer might be "don't have low Strength", you're going to have something low, so what do you choose?

For my PCs this is about half/half. I will take two skills which support my best ability scores, and often two skills to support my WORST ability scores. Nothing sucks more than a Rogue with STR 8 or 10 without Athletics when you need it! (Actually, I'll commonly even use an Expertise on such skills!!!)

 

[Minigiant]

Perception and Stealth are important in 2 pillars. It's the only two beside Acrobatics and Athletics that's define in the base rules as useful in the combat pillar.

If 5e was going to be so freeform, it either needed a few more skills or codify more skills having both combat and exploration uses.

 

[James Gasik]

Oh, I don't know. I think you have a point, but I don't think it is as strong as you might feel (at least not to me... shrug).

I see Medicine and Nature used fairly regularly, History sometimes but we use it for things like heraldry, etc., and Performance is only useful for role-play more than anything else, and then it often doesn't really matter IME.

However, out of those, only Medicine is really important at all. The others can be used or not and such is life.

Perception is probably better, but a lot depends on the build and the PC's role in the party IME. Like I wrote above, about half the PCs in the games I've DMed or played in don't have proficiency in Perception.

Now, that isn't to say it isn't important, because the flip side is saying half the PCs DO have it! Out of 18 skills, nothing is as commonly taken. Probably Athletics is a close second IME, just due to grapples and shoves more than actually climbing or anything, although that does come up nearly each session. After that, we see Stealth and Survival often enough as well!


For my PCs this is about half/half. I will take two skills which support my best ability scores, and often two skills to support my WORST ability scores. Nothing sucks more than a Rogue with STR 8 or 10 without Athletics when you need it! (Actually, I'll commonly even use an Expertise on such skills!!!)

Yeah, Expertise is probably best used that way, rather than give yourself an absurdly high check that makes challenging it difficult, IMO.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I don't see a problem with Perception for me. On some characters I take it, on others I don't. I don't particularly have more fun on the perceptive characters vs. ones good at other skills. It's definitely a top tier skill, but I don't find it radically more valuable than Stealth or Persuasion, or various others depending on the table.

If I was at a table that just did constant "everyone who fails a Perception check is surprised" ambushes it might graduate to some sort of too good to pass up status for me, because I hate missing my turn. Similarly if my tables more often had non-combat situations where there were perception checks and only the perceivers were allowed to respond to things I'd prioritize it higher, because I like to participate in all parts of the game. And certainly I think there are other DM practices that can make Perception too good to pass up at particular tables. As is it is "one of the best" but not "must have" for me.

What I think makes people feel a need to take Perception is that "everyone makes a Perception check" situations are pretty common in most campaigns, and you feel lame if you do poorly even if it doesn't really matter that your individual character failed. Meanwhile if you are terrible at Arcana you just don't try to analyze the arcane properties of things, and I've never been asked to participate in a group Arcana check. Combine the fact that every character will make at least a few Perception checks, with it actually being effectively a must-have skill at some tables and it we have it getting the gold (or sky blue, or whatever they use) rating in every character build guide and having the reputation as some sort of "too powerful", "must-have" skill that some people feel they need to "fix".

My advice is for DMs to not lock too much stuff behind Perception checks and for players to not worry so much and just play less perceptive characters sometimes.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Just a side note, but in every game I've ever seen people play in, there was a strong motivation for people to invest in whatever construct upped your perception. Its not just a D&D feature.

 

[Umbran]

It exists & by existing consumes activities that should be covered by other skills.

• Want to see a magic trap? don't use arcana, use perception
• Want to see a hunting trap? don't use survival, use perception

I have no problem with this - seeing things and dealing with them are not equivalent. Figuring out what the magic trap will do needs Arcana, disarming the snare will need Survival.

• Want to see if the NPC is hiding the ball in three card monte? Don't use slight of hand or something, use perception
• Want to see if the tripwires are positioned so you can maneuver through? Don't use acrobatics, use perception

Yep, again, because seeing a thing and acting upon that information are not equivalent.

Then you have the lack of skills like culture/streetwise engineering & appraisal to further shift things to perception in many cases.

Culture is in history or Background - yes, go ahead and use the character's Background as a skill! Since "have a skill" really just means "apply your proficiency bonus to an ability check". Engineering is tool use. Appraisal sits either in an appropriate Background, or in the tool proficiency required to make the item in question.

Because Perception can give you sensory data, but won't generally tell you what that data means. Perception doesn't interpret anything for you.

 

[James Gasik]

I have no problem with this - seeing things and dealing with them are not equivalent. Figuring out what the magic trap will do needs Arcana, disarming the snare will need Survival.



Yep, again, because seeing a thing and acting upon that information are not equivalent.



Culture is in history or Background - yes, go ahead and use the character's Background as a skill! Since "have a skill" really just means "apply your proficiency bonus to an ability check". Engineering is tool use. Appraisal sits either in an appropriate Background, or in the tool proficiency required to make the item in question.

Because Perception can give you sensory data, but won't generally tell you what that data means. Perception doesn't interpret anything for you.

Though if you don't gather the data in the first place, it doesn't matter how good you are at interpretation.

One thing I think needs to be done is make Skills not apply always to one Ability score, but the one that makes the most sense at the moment. Like using Strength for Intimidation, or in the case of gathering info with Arcana, Wisdom instead of Intelligence.

 

[GMMichael]

1. DMs gate information behind Perception checks that should just be part of their description of the environment.
2. DMs treat Perception like always-on radar instead of a possible bonus on a check to resolve a declared action.

This. But it doesn't help that D&D partially defines perception as "general awareness of your surroundings." I don't see the big deal: proficiency just gives your proficiency bonus, which isn't all that much in 5e.

Just a side note, but in every game I've ever seen people play in, there was a strong motivation for people to invest in whatever construct upped your perception. Its not just a D&D feature.

Play some Modos 2. Detect (perception/investigate) is much more balanced when you get one skill point per level, and attacking and defending benefit from skill points.

Default Skills List | Modos RPG | Obsidian Portal

This is the skills list from Modos 2. Armed (P) For attacking with a manufactured weapon. You have trained to fight and disable or destroy your enemies, from at

modos-rpg.obsidianportal.com

 

[James Gasik]

This. But it doesn't help that D&D partially defines perception as "general awareness of your surroundings." I don't see the big deal: proficiency just gives your proficiency bonus, which isn't all that much in 5e.

Play some Modos 2. Detect (perception/investigate) is much more balanced when you get one skill point per level, and attacking and defending benefit from skill points.

Default Skills List | Modos RPG | Obsidian Portal

This is the skills list from Modos 2. Armed (P) For attacking with a manufactured weapon. You have trained to fight and disable or destroy your enemies, from at

modos-rpg.obsidianportal.com

It depends. Eventually proficiency matters more than your ability score.

 

[Umbran]

Though if you don't gather the data in the first place, it doesn't matter how good you are at interpretation.

Yep. You do, in fact, have to inspect the building to understand how it is put together. Go figure.

One thing I think needs to be done is make Skills not apply always to one Ability score, but the one that makes the most sense at the moment.

Oh, you mean, like is already provided for in the rules, if you want it?

Spoiler: Longish quote from PHB Pg 175

"Variant: Skills with Different Abilities​

Normally, your proficiency in a skill applies only to a specific kind of ability check. Proficiency in Athletics, for example, usually applies to Strength checks. In some situations, though, your proficiency might reasonably apply to a different kind of check. In such cases, the DM might ask for a check using an unusual combination of ability and skill, or you might ask your DM if you can apply a proficiency to a different check. For example, if you have to swim from an offshore island to the mainland, your DM might call for a Constitution check to see if you have the stamina to make it that far. In this case, your DM might allow you to apply your proficiency in Athletics and ask for a Constitution (Athletics) check. So if you're proficient in Athletics, you apply your proficiency bonus to the Constitution check just as you would normally do for a Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, when your half-‐‑orc barbarian uses a display of raw strength to intimidate an enemy, your DM might ask for a Strength (Intimidation) check, even though Intimidation is normally associated with Charisma."