D&D (2024) What's your opinion on the standardization of Spellcasters?

[Pedantic]

Funny part is I've never actually played it... I've just read and watched a crap-ton about it with the intention of finally getting around to it.

But I've been dragged into the cult of Twilight Imperium 4th edition and continually use that as my massively complex board game experience of choice, LOL.

Some caveats to a Root recommendation, spoilered to avoid the primary thread content:

Spoiler: Root Thoughts

Root is beautiful as an object and can be a lot of fun, but it's a game I wouldn't recommend without caveats. Notably, the game is a quite tight and brutal race for points that can feel very lopsided if the players aren't generally at the same experience level, and that the game heavily rewards understanding every faction around the table, as absolute score values are often not indicative of how much reach a faction may have in the last couple turns. It also requires a strong "beat up the leader" social contract, or it will fall apart.

All of which is to say, it's a great game, but a surprisingly cruel one with what can be a very abrupt ending and I've seen a lot of people aesthetically excited about it end up disappointed with the actual gameplay. In many ways, it feels more similar to something like a Splotter game than a conventional wargame.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ok, let's try to gauge a reaction. This is a hot topic, but the discussion is spread out across threads. So let's just get a feel of it.

What is your response to the next changes?

• All spellcasters prepare spells. With a fixed set of always prepared spells per class.

Excellent. As long as the Warlock breaks the rules. But also we don't know yet that this is even the case. It could be that they decided that the jack of all trades class and the "find the right tool for the job in the wilderness" class needed more spell versatility.

• The slots to prepare spells are fixed per level.

Probably good, but also not a needed change at all. Also I think Wizards will probably prepare more spells than other classes.

• All classes care about schools to know which spells to prepare.

I don't even see this as standardization in any way. It's just using the spell's existing categorizations to make the spell list for each class different in a way that doesn't require all new spell lists when they add a new spellcasting subclass to a martial class, or a new spellcasting class altogether, or to list out which spells are on which lists when they put out new spells. It's an arcane spell, of the evocation domain, we know wizards get it and rangers don't.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think it’s a bit too soon to be saying they’re standardizing casting. We’ve seen all of two casters. It could be that this is only how experts prepare and cast spells, for example. It’s also possible that this first look at casting polls poorly and we don’t see it again.

For my part, I would prefer each casting class have unique casting mechanics. The Warlock is awesome because it actually does something different than every other caster. The Next playtest sorcerer was an entirely spell point-based caster and it was awesome. I’d love to see that make a comeback, while the wizard goes full-on classic prepare-each-use-of-a-spell-individually Vancian, the Cleric leans into Channel Divinity as its unique casting feature, the druid gets something else new… Of course I know none of that is going to happen in 5e (or 1D&D or whatever you want to call it). So, I guess the approach we see in the Experts UA is fine?

I might not have switched over to 5e if that had been the set up from the beginning, and I might not switch to the new revised rules if that were to be the model.
Especially the Wizard getting old school vancian casting, which was terrible and the main reason I avoided the class until 4e.

Even the Warlock should prepare spells and pull from the arcane spell list with subclasses getting always prepared spells, and cast spells differently in that they have fewer slots that auto-upcast and recharge quickly. I think that something more unique than just "recharge on short rest" would be more fun, but I'll accept "recharge on short rest, or regain one spell slot as an action PB/LR". Imagine if you regained a spell slot any time a creature cursed by you by any means is killed. That would be vastly more different from a wizard than the current warlock, IMO.

Sorry to reply to the same topic in two threads.

 

[Charlaquin]

I might not have switched over to 5e if that had been the set up from the beginning, and I might not switch to the new revised rules if that were to be the model.
Especially the Wizard getting old school vancian casting, which was terrible and the main reason I avoided the class until 4e.

Old school Vancian was mostly just an example. But also, there are lots of people who like old-school Vancian, so having a class that works that way, so people who like it can play it and people who don’t can choose not to, would be a good thing in my opinion. That would be one of the benefits of having diverse casting rules between classes.

Even the Warlock should prepare spells and pull from the arcane spell list with subclasses getting always prepared spells, and cast spells differently in that they have fewer slots that auto-upcast and recharge quickly.

Sure; I wouldn’t mind that with warlocks preparing spells that way they actually cast differently, with their limited auto-scaling spell slots that recover more quickly.

I think that something more unique than just "recharge on short rest" would be more fun, but I'll accept "recharge on short rest, or regain one spell slot as an action PB/LR". Imagine if you regained a spell slot any time a creature cursed by you by any means is killed. That would be vastly more different from a wizard than the current warlock, IMO.

Yeah, that’d be cool!

Sorry to reply to the same topic in two threads.

‘Sall good.

 

[Shiroiken]

Having only seen the Experts, and not the Mages or Priests, I feel it's too early to make a determination.

 

[niklinna]

Having only seen the Experts, and not the Mages or Priests, I feel it's too early to make a determination.

But then what will we angst about in the meantime!?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Old school Vancian was mostly just an example. But also, there are lots of people who like old-school Vancian, so having a class that works that way, so people who like it can play it and people who don’t can choose not to, would be a good thing in my opinion. That would be one of the benefits of having diverse casting rules between classes.

But it would make the class basically unplayable for others, because it's a needlessly annoying system that feels even more needlessly clunky and annoying standing next to what is now considered normal dnd casting.
If you want to include it as an optional alternative to standard casting, fine. The game is better when each class that does magic doesn't do it so differently that a decent percentage of players will only ever want to play one or two casting classes, and will be dissatisfied with classes that they otherwise want to play, all just to make the game more arbitrarily different.

Sure; I wouldn’t mind that with warlocks preparing spells that way they actually cast differently, with their limited auto-scaling spell slots that recover more quickly.

And this is where I think it's better to differentiate. Prepared spells is just obviously better than known spells, but the 2014 phb treats them as equals. The only way to make known spells as good would be to give them too many known spells, which creates new problems. This way the classes all have the non-frustrating version of spellcasting, but you can do whatever you want with other elements of casting, like giving rangers the ability to ignore concentration on their signature spell and downcast a later level spell.

Yeah, that’d be cool!

We can dream lol

‘Sall good.

cool

 

[Vael]

Other ... ask again after I see the other classes.

 

[MoonSong]

And this is where I think it's better to differentiate. Prepared spells is just obviously better than known spells, but the 2014 phb treats them as equals. The only way to make known spells as good would be to give them too many known spells, which creates new problems. This way the classes all have the non-frustrating version of spellcasting, but you can do whatever you want with other elements of casting, like giving rangers the ability to ignore concentration on their signature spell and downcast a later level spell.

Not really, 2014 treats known spells as somehow better than prepared. If it treated them as equal, sorcerers and bards would get an equal amount of know spells to wizards and clerics prepared ones.

If knowing enough known spells to be equivalent to a certain amount of prepared spells is somehow broken, how is that same amount of prepared spells not equally broken? Forcing everybody to prepare isn't a fix but a copout, and one very antithetical to the nature of sorcerers. A sorcerer that prepares spells is not a sorcerer IMO.

 

[Charlaquin]

But it would make the class basically unplayable for others, because it's a needlessly annoying system that feels even more needlessly clunky and annoying standing next to what is now considered normal dnd casting.
If you want to include it as an optional alternative to standard casting, fine. The game is better when each class that does magic doesn't do it so differently that a decent percentage of players will only ever want to play one or two casting classes, and will be dissatisfied with classes that they otherwise want to play, all just to make the game more arbitrarily different.

It’s not arbitrarily different. It’s so people who like different things can all play characters that suit their tastes. Don’t like vancian casting, don’t play the vancian class. Don’t like AEDU, don’t play the AEDU class. Etc.

And this is where I think it's better to differentiate. Prepared spells is just obviously better than known spells, but the 2014 phb treats them as equals. The only way to make known spells as good would be to give them too many known spells, which creates new problems. This way the classes all have the non-frustrating version of spellcasting, but you can do whatever you want with other elements of casting, like giving rangers the ability to ignore concentration on their signature spell and downcast a later level spell.

I agree with you, personally. But you know, earlier today I was talking with a colleague about a D&D character she was thinking about making. Had a neat story idea but wasn’t sure what class to play. Someone else mentioned druid and she said, “oh, but is that one of the casters that has to prepare their spells every day?” I get the impression @Vaalingrade feels similarly. They might say something similar about prepared casting to what you said above about classic vancian. Wouldn’t it be nice if there were some classes those people could play where they don’t have to do that, and there were classes you and I could play that do prepare spells?