D&D General When did D&D gods first rely on their worshipers?

[Ruin Explorer]

Pratchett was working without the benefit of the World Wide Web in 1992, so he was essentially prisoner to whatever theologians he could get to answer his questions by phone.

Seriously, I dunno is @Charlaquin is ancient enough to remember, but the amount of questionable ideas one got because one had to ask humans or read whatever books/magazines were available, pre-internet, particularly Wikipedia, was preeeeeeetty huge. As an ancient myself at 43, I still sometimes find ideas from that era which are just... nonsense... but someone earnestly explained them to me back then.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

You need to read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.

I'd argue that Discworld might be the fantasy series with the most material to offer DMs, whether it's thinking through the consequences of elements of the world or just a cast of stock characters to pull from for home games. (I'm sure there are a few DMs who have a recurring street vendor NPC in their games who aren't Discworld readers, but Pratchett shows off why you should have one, or a similar recurring bottom feeder urban NPC, if you don't.)

 

[Parmandur]

This kind of thing is why everyone wants to blow up Toril.

This kind of thing is why WotC did blow up Toril. Twice. The second time, it seems to have worked.

 

[Don Durito]

I'm pretty sure Pratchett just made his theology up for Discworld. If he hadn't come across the basic idea elsewhere it was a pretty logical extrapolation for post D&D fantasy.

 

[Charlaquin]

Seriously, I dunno is @Charlaquin is ancient enough to remember, but the amount of questionable ideas one got because one had to ask humans or read whatever books/magazines were available, pre-internet, particularly Wikipedia, was preeeeeeetty huge. As an ancient myself at 43, I still sometimes find ideas from that era which are just... nonsense... but someone earnestly explained them to me back then.

I am, but barely. There were like some school projects I had to actually go to a library to research, but by like... 6th grade search engines were good enough you could largely do it online.

 

[Parmandur]

Seriously, I dunno is @Charlaquin is ancient enough to remember, but the amount of questionable ideas one got because one had to ask humans or read whatever books/magazines were available, pre-internet, particularly Wikipedia, was preeeeeeetty huge. As an ancient myself at 43, I still sometimes find ideas from that era which are just... nonsense... but someone earnestly explained them to me back then.

Man, that still happens now, just faster.

 

[see]

Actually its more complicated then that for Gods in FR. Worshippers we needed post ToT, but not before,

No, not true. It is absolutely stated in pre-Avatar Trilogy materials that the gods need worship (1981's "Down-to-Earth Divinity" and the 1e FRCS, for example, both written long before Ao was invented). Similarly, later works such as Faiths & Avatars establish that gods would decline and die from lack of worship before the Time of Troubles, most famously in the case of Amaunator.

It is true that in the novel Waterdeep (the third book of the Avatar Trilogy), the speech Ao gives includes the declaration that he's imposing the need for worship as a new punishment for the gods. This is a continuity screw-up by the author and editors of that book, and should be ignored given the consistent evidence, both pre- and post-Avatar publication, that the worship reliance existed pre-ToT.

 

[Faolyn]

You need to read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.

Although I'm not fond of treating gods this way. I tend to prefer an approach where gods gain power by seizing hold of some particular archetypal conduit and holding onto it - a bit like the Malazan book of the Fallen.

So you can kill the god of death, but before too long a new god of death will arise because there's a vacant throne that needs to be filled (although if the last god of death was a massive naughty word then it may be a considerable improvement).

From time to time, if mortal society changes a new throne may appear waiting to be filled - this makes for a good campaign hook.

That's basically the In Nomine approach. The broader and more applicable a celestial's Word is in that game, the more powerful the celestial is. Which is why the demon of Death is a demon prince (even if he's an idiot), while the demon of Choking to Death on Chicken Bones is pretty minor. Although still more powerful than a demon with no Word whatsoever.

Of course, that does mean that various celestials--or deities, in D&D's case--frequently battle over the Word/archetypal conduit a lot. But I'd consider that to be a decent enough price to pay if you want to avoid the Needs Prayer Badly trope.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm pretty sure Pratchett just made his theology up for Discworld. If he hadn't come across the basic idea elsewhere it was a pretty logical extrapolation for post D&D fantasy.

He explicitly says it's from the Gnostic Heresy and says it's a universal across worlds the moment worshipers get up off their knees. He seems to believe he got it from somewhere else.

 

[Rob Kuntz]

It's before that in D&D.

Deities & Demigods (1980)- "The source of a deity's godheads is in some way connected to his or her earthly worshipers, though in what manner the gods derive this power is a mystery totally beyond mortal (or immortal) comprehension. However, it is true that a god's power often increases or decreases as the number of his worshipers varies. Thus deities, and clerics as their agents, constantly try to increase the quantity and quality of their worshipers." (p. 8)