D&D 5E "When DMing I Avoid Making the PCs have 'pointless' combats." (a poll)

[iserith]

Yes, I expect the game to be challenging, the players don't want a challenge, therefore I'm the problem.

That is the narrative you're telling us. And I believe you. But what would these 200 players say? I bet it's not what you're saying, at least in some cases. There's two sides to every story and we're only hearing one. If I'm the common element in an issue with 200 other people, it seems very reasonable to me to consider whether the problem is me.

 

[iserith]

Going further, the problem is absolutely not a "a mismatch in play expectation"

From what we have to go on in the posts to which I'm responding, it very clearly is a mismatch in expectation in my view. Neither party is getting what they want because one person (the DM) expects the players to behave a certain way and the players don't want to behave that way. That can happen in any game, so we really can't point the finger here at long resting or whatever. These people are all playing different games at the same table. (Again, according to what we've been told so far.)

 

[Vaalingrade]

My players disagree. They love anything that makes the game less challenging and hate anything that makes the game more challenging.

I mean there's the clue right there. No one is wrong here, just incompatible.

If the audience doesn't want something, they're not going to enjoy it no matter how much the content creator complains about them on the internet.

Either give them what they want, or if you can't, maybe it's time for you to find players that want challenge and them to get a DM that can give them the kind of game they want.

 

[Helldritch]

That is the narrative you're telling us. And I believe you. But what would these 200 players say? I bet it's not what you're saying, at least in some cases. There's two sides to every story and we're only hearing one. If I'm the common element in an issue with 200 other people, it seems very reasonable to me to consider whether the problem is me.

Or simply the way session zero is done?
I give a lot of explanations to new players and to people that come to our Friday Night Dungeons. People know that I am a harsh DM that challenges the players to do their best and perform above and beyond normal expectations. Pushing their limits and so on.

I also tell people that short rests is a full night sleep and a long rest is a full week in a safe environment such as an inn, a castle or stronghold. Anything else only gives a short rest and you can only have two short rest between long rests. Not 3, 4, 5, or 6. Only two. So you'd better be wary, prudent and aware of the consequences. I also modified the light cantrip. It now only gives the light of a candle. I enforce the disadvantage rule on perception check without light so people carry torches and one of the great magical item can have is actually the Drift Globe. Players love that magical item and want to have more than one at all time!

 

[overgeeked]

Really? Mass rage quits because they could not think things through? IMHO you are better off without them. I never had such rage quits since high school.

Yep. I posted about it regularly in the describe your last game in 5 words thread and the accompanying commentary thread. Though it usually wasn't mass rage quits, it was a near constant stream of 1s and 2s.

I do not know what to say other than the above. I warned every single players that there is no perfect solutions for any problems. If a player has some experience with a DM, I ask this person a bit about how the games were run by their old DMs. Hard mode is not for everyone and for those that want to try, a DM must warn them.

I was very explicit about my expectations in every session zero I did. Whenever a new player joined I'd give them the same spiel. I don't need hard mode, just not LOL easy mode.

It maybe because I have a very different style than many DMs out here or that players in my area love challenging and deadly adventures. I truly do not know. One thing is for sure, when we do our Friday Night Dungeons we do have a lot of question as to how my games are so roughs (even in exhibit games). I truly run games like the world is alive.

That's my goal as well. I want the world to react like it should. Rules and main character syndrome be damned. If you stab an NPC, the local guards are going to react.

One thing I often do as a cameo outside the game like the old:"Meanwhile" in old stories and movies. Is to describe a scene about the master villain of the current story. If they know the master mind then I describe the scene (but I do not tell the location) and make the villain curse the success of the players or say how they were fools to fail such easy endeavours and so on. It kinda of give a warning of things to comes. I usually use the dream of a priest or diviner or exhalted soul to give such "insights". I find that players like these (even if they're bad clichés). It also reinforce the fact that the world is alive and moves. It also help them understand that their actions have meaning and effects.

When a character dream of shadowy figure that say:" Curse these interlopers! They have set back my plans by months if not years! Come Azrazel! We must plan our next move carefully in (fill in the blank)!" It not only gives the player a warning of what is to come, it also sets them on the hunt. This is the kind of thing that my players and those that come to look at the exhibit games like a lot.

I was always very clear about timers and goals. "You have two days to stop the sacrifice." Didn't matter. They'd let the person die rather than risk their characters.

 

[overgeeked]

That is the narrative you're telling us. And I believe you. But what would these 200 players say? I bet it's not what you're saying, at least in some cases. There's two sides to every story and we're only hearing one. If I'm the common element in an issue with 200 other people, it seems very reasonable to me to consider whether the problem is me.

Again, yes, I expect the game to be challenging, the players don't want a challenge, therefore I'm the problem.

From what we have to go on in the posts to which I'm responding, it very clearly is a mismatch in expectation in my view. Neither party is getting what they want because one person (the DM) expects the players to behave a certain way and the players don't want to behave that way. That can happen in any game, so we really can't point the finger here at long resting or whatever. These people are all playing different games at the same table. (Again, according to what we've been told so far.)

The way I think of it is this. If the rules allow it, the players will do it. I don't blame the players for that. I blame the rules. So, if the rules produce a result that I don't want, I change the rules. Simple. I am transparent about that and have no problems changing the rules and the players know that going in. Yet the still complain and object and quit. Like when I banned Leomund's Tiny Hut. The players abused the hell out of it. I let it slide until it became clear that they were never going to stop abusing it as long as it was an option, so I banned it. Players complained and quit.

 

[overgeeked]

Or simply the way session zero is done?

I give a lot of explanations to new players and to people that come to our Friday Night Dungeons. People know that I am a harsh DM that challenges the players to do their best and perform above and beyond normal expectations. Pushing their limits and so on.

I also tell people that short rests is a full night sleep and a long rest is a full week in a safe environment such as an inn, a castle or stronghold. Anything else only gives a short rest and you can only have two short rest between long rests. Not 3, 4, 5, or 6. Only two. So you'd better be wary, prudent and aware of the consequences. I also modified the light cantrip. It now only gives the light of a candle. I enforce the disadvantage rule on perception check without light so people carry torches and one of the great magical item can have is actually the Drift Globe. Players love that magical item and want to have more than one at all time!

I sit everyone down and do a one-on-one session zero. Give them the spiel and hand them a print out of the house rules and email a link to the same document online as a PDF. My expectations are made crystal clear. Yet the players still ignore those and play anyway...knowing their expectations do not match up with mine...then the complain and quit. It's a really weird cycle. It's repeated dozens and dozens of times. Players say they want a challenge, then once presented with one, they freak out and bounce.

 

[Helldritch]

Yep. I posted about it regularly in the describe your last game in 5 words thread and the accompanying commentary thread. Though it usually wasn't mass rage quits, it was a near constant stream of 1s and 2s.

I was very explicit about my expectations in every session zero I did. Whenever a new player joined I'd give them the same spiel. I don't need hard mode, just not LOL easy mode.

That's my goal as well. I want the world to react like it should. Rules and main character syndrome be damned. If you stab an NPC, the local guards are going to react.

That is my kind of game. Grounded in realism, yet still in a fantasy world. I am truly sorry that you do not have people like my players around your area.

I was always very clear about timers and goals. "You have two days to stop the sacrifice." Didn't matter. They'd let the person die rather than risk their characters.

LOL! I would make their character die or at least feel very cheap. I'd boost the BBEG of that adventure and start to seek them out with: " You've allowed me to become invicible! Thank you fools! Now you die as my master/god/whatever told me you were coming for me!" The BBEG would come right before these characters would have had their full rest and the BBEG would not come alone. And I would show them my notes to so that they would know that it was them that screwed up.

Now I do not often do the time bomb type of mission. I do not need to. But once in while, when the adventure presents itself naturally to this type of adventure, my players will not lose any time. And in these case, they know that the rewards are usually great and important. If not materially, it will be reputation reward that will open them doors way before the usual time they are accustom to. I do not really enjoy giving the stick to players. I much prefer the carrot/reward way. Much more efficient.

 

[iserith]

Or simply the way session zero is done?
I give a lot of explanations to new players and to people that come to our Friday Night Dungeons. People know that I am a harsh DM that challenges the players to do their best and perform above and beyond normal expectations. Pushing their limits and so on.

I also tell people that short rests is a full night sleep and a long rest is a full week in a safe environment such as an inn, a castle or stronghold. Anything else only gives a short rest and you can only have two short rest between long rests. Not 3, 4, 5, or 6. Only two. So you'd better be wary, prudent and aware of the consequences. I also modified the light cantrip. It now only gives the light of a candle. I enforce the disadvantage rule on perception check without light so people carry torches and one of the great magical item can have is actually the Drift Globe. Players love that magical item and want to have more than one at all time!

Drift globe is very underrated in my experience!

 

[payn]

I sit everyone down and do a one-on-one session zero. Give them the spiel and hand them a print out of the house rules and email a link to the same document online as a PDF. My expectations are made crystal clear. Yet the players still ignore those and play anyway...knowing their expectations do not match up with mine...then the complain and quit. It's a really weird cycle. It's repeated dozens and dozens of times. Players say they want a challenge, then once presented with one, they freak out and bounce.

I've noticed that players will often agree to anything just to get in a group and play. The best method I have found is one shot trials. Run them until you find players that match your playstyle and understand it. Not everybody can articulate what they like and want out of a game. A simple document doesn't always do it. Organized play works like this too, but you have to play by those rules. Still, a better method than just singing up folks for a campaign in which you are all new to each other.