When Skill Focus loses its value

[green slime]

Elder Basilisk makes a strong case, but I still (politely) disagree.

Those warrior guards are exceptional: the have used all their skill points on Spot and Listen, and two of their three feats. It is of course possible for the villa owner to set certain requirements as to his employess...

The 8th level (Wiz6/Ftr1/EK1) with craft wonderous item has Dex 20 (archer)

+5 cloak +5 Dex mod +10 elixir and casts invisibility from a scroll +20. Casting reduce grants a further +1 to Dex mod, and +4 to Hide.

+45 to Hide

He can use a stilled knock (lesser metamagic rod), to facilitate opening the back door.

Dogs can just as easily be avoided with hide from animals. I assume this exists as a potion too... Dogs are much harder for even the skilled to avoid without turning to magic.

And in order to justify using the potion of see invisibility, the guard has to assume that there is something/someone there. And still has to be looking in the right direction. Distractions are mundane and can be caused by accessories. That villa must be turning over a tidy profit if it can afford to equip all the guards with potions of see invisibility nightly at 300 gp a pop. (assuming it merits this kind of attention, then it would be getting more attention, perhaps that is why the guards are so alert...)

Compared to the price of hiring the guard, the potion represents a substantial investment. I can't see it being motivated equipping all the guards with these potions. For 30 minutes duration. I'd equip the master guardsman with two and a one of invisibility purge. On suspicious activity being detected, the other guards alarm the master guardsman, who evaluates and advises. YMMV.

Secondly, in a one-on-one combat situation, a Rogue can Feint to gain Sneak attack (requiring a lot of skill and feat expenditure), Hide and strike once, or, get his 7th level + spellcasting buddy to cast greater invisibility, and sneak attack for the rest of the battle...

Its like the rogue's skill abilities are basically redundant. Sure they are good in that many times it saves spellcasting ability, but I dislike the extent to which spellcasting and magical items can completely dominate a skill set.

 

[Savage Wombat]

You're forgetting one other use of Skill Focus:

as a pre-requisite for Prestige Classes focused on a particular skill.

I have the "Shadowblade" - a combat-oriented shadowdancer, basically - and they're required to have Skill Focus: Hide. No, Stealthy won't compensate. Only those who've really gone all out to master Hiding get in to the class.

 

[sledged]

No, Stealthy won't compensate. Only those who've really gone all out to master Hiding get in to the class.

Then you should have required both.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Elder Basilisk makes a strong case, but I still (politely) disagree.

Those warrior guards are exceptional: the have used all their skill points on Spot and Listen, and two of their three feats. It is of course possible for the villa owner to set certain requirements as to his employess...

You're right that the guards are unusually good. However, I'm creating a situation that an 8th level thief (of any class) might actually be challenged by. A cave entrance staffed by a couple of drunk orc guards who are half asleep because it's midday is a challenge for a first or second level rogue or ranger, not an 8th level one. Similarly, a first or second level thief knocks over little orphan Annie's lemonade stand. An 8th level thief sets his aim somewhat higher. If you have stuff that's worth an 8th level thief's time, you have enough money to hire skilled guards.

Assuming that the guards are humans with a 10 int, they have six more skill points to spend on something else (there are probably a few in handle animal to deal with the dogs and a few in random interests of the guards, bluff, diplomacy, or sense motive). Anyway, I could have made them Com 2/War 1's and boosted their spot and listen skills significantly (what with commoners having spot and listen as class skills).

The 8th level (Wiz6/Ftr1/EK1) with craft wonderous item has Dex 20 (archer)

+5 cloak +5 Dex mod +10 elixir and casts invisibility from a scroll +20. Casting reduce grants a further +1 to Dex mod, and +4 to Hide.

+45 to Hide

That doesn't help his Move Silently--I would guess that's still at the +21 range after using Reduce and the elixir, etc. +21 is good but still quite detectable when you're moving past guards with a decent listen check.

He can use a stilled knock (lesser metamagic rod), to facilitate opening the back door.

Using a fighter/wizard who doesn't really have the possibility of being good at the skills automatically makes the case in your favor. He has to use magic because he's got no other option. However, keep in mind that this character runs into more than a few difficulties along the way:

1. The duration of his invisibility scroll isn't enough to get him to the wall (assuming he reads it out of earshot of the guards), over the wall, across the courtyard, through the door, etc. He'll need two or three scrolls depending upon how quickly he negotiates the villa, finds what he's looking for, and safely takes it. Reading scrolls is (as I understand it) like casting spells: it requires speaking in a strong voice (DC 0 listen check).

2. The knock spell will also require speaking in a strong voice (unless you meant a silent spell metamagic rod. (Said character had also better hope that he encounters no more than three locks on his way in and out too--and I would guess three locks is a minimum: one on the door to the villa, one on the strongroom door, and one on the strongbox itself--there might well be more).

Dogs can just as easily be avoided with hide from animals. I assume this exists as a potion too... Dogs are much harder for even the skilled to avoid without turning to magic.

I was assuming that the individual simply waited until the dogs had gone past and then crept over the courtyard.

Hide from Animals would be a good way to avoid them though.

And in order to justify using the potion of see invisibility, the guard has to assume that there is something/someone there. And still has to be looking in the right direction. Distractions are mundane and can be caused by accessories. That villa must be turning over a tidy profit if it can afford to equip all the guards with potions of see invisibility nightly at 300 gp a pop. (assuming it merits this kind of attention, then it would be getting more attention, perhaps that is why the guards are so alert...)

My idea is that the potions are not given for regular use but rather to drink if the guards believe that there's an invisible intruder on the grounds (on the basis of the dogs' actions, etc). They'd probably have glowpowder (T&B) too.

Compared to the price of hiring the guard, the potion represents a substantial investment. I can't see it being motivated equipping all the guards with these potions. For 30 minutes duration. I'd equip the master guardsman with two and a one of invisibility purge. On suspicious activity being detected, the other guards alarm the master guardsman, who evaluates and advises. YMMV.

That's probably a good way to do it. I'd probably equip all the guards with glowpowder though--that's much cheaper.

Secondly, in a one-on-one combat situation, a Rogue can Feint to gain Sneak attack (requiring a lot of skill and feat expenditure), Hide and strike once, or, get his 7th level + spellcasting buddy to cast greater invisibility, and sneak attack for the rest of the battle...

Greater Invisibility is a great spell for a rogue, no doubt about that. However, it's usefulness tapers off after a certain point. It doesn't help against barbarians, other rogues, or foes with blindfight (in melee). Nor does it help against the top-shelf evil outsiders (most of whom have true seeing at will). It is also defeated by See Invisibility, Glitterdust, and Invisibility Purge. Feing works just fine against barbarians, rogues, foes with blindfight, foes with true seeing, foes with See Invisibility, when glitterdusted, and when in the area of invisibility purge.

Greater invisibility won't let you lie your way past the mob boss or seduce the sorceress either. Bluff helps on both.

Its like the rogue's skill abilities are basically redundant. Sure they are good in that many times it saves spellcasting ability, but I dislike the extent to which spellcasting and magical items can completely dominate a skill set.

It's not a matter of just saving spellcasting ability. Sure, spells can duplicate a good number of a rogue's abilities. However, they can't duplicate all of them (said wizard is in trouble if the villa's strongbox is trapped) and a good rogue is still generally better than a wizard pretending to be a rogue by using items and spells. (I note that your wizard has spent at least 8,600gp on gear that helps him be sneaky--probably 12,600 (including the gloves of dex he probably has) which is most of his equipment. A rogue can do the same thing better with less gear meaning that he has a magic sword and some other goodies too). Furthermore, the rogue can do all of this without special preparation (the wizard you describe can do most of it but only if he prepares his spells for exactly that purpose), can do it on a moment's notice, and can do it indefinitely (a rogue can scout ahead of the group for a few hours; the wizard's invisibility lasts only minutes).

To the extent that it's a problem, however, it's a problem with having any magic at all. Unless you want to restrict magical characters to doing things that no other character can do, you're going to have this problem (you can't summon monsters to kill things, that would step on the fighter's toes, you can't shoot things with magical energy, that would step on the archer's toes, you can't make things invisible, that steps on the rogue's toes, you can't charm people, that steps on the diplomat and liars' toes, you can't teleport, that makes rangers and druids useless, you can't fireball, that makes whirlwind attack useless, you can't do anything because everything you want to do with magic is either something someone else does without it or something that lets you avoid the necessity of having someone else do something). Magic exists to do things. If it couldn't do things, there'd be no point in having it. If it does do things, odds are very good they're something someone else would do in a different way.

 

[brehobit]

I'd just point out that skill focus (ride) is basically a +3 AC bonus against one melee attack per round for your mount if you have mounted combat. I've not yet tried this in actual play, but it seems very useful to me. Certainly not a high priority, but also not a waste, not even at 20th level.

 

[Driddle]

To touch tangentially on the magic and/or skills comments: I follow the philosophy of "Whatcha Gonna Do If You Lose All Your Cool Stuff?" Magic items can be taken away; spells are gone after you cast them; but learned skills can always be counted on when the chips are down. I handle my characters always with the goal of being as competent as possible even when he's stripped down to his skivvies.

 

[Al]

The problem with Skill Focus is that it is extremely useful for NPCs, and of limited usage for PCs. The reason is that many PCs will have to be broadly versatile, whilst NPCs can perform the same actions over and over.

Elder_Basilisk has constructed a very good case for Skill Focus, but the outstanding point that he has made is the one concerning NPCs. If a particular skill is your life's work and livelihood, it is definitely worthwhile taking a feat to boost your aptitude, and by extension, earning capacity and hence standard of living.

Moreover, for non-adventuring NPCs, most core feats are broadly useless. Why does a gemcutter need Weapon Focus? Is the town clerk really going to derive much use from Improved Initiative? Or a magistrate from Point Blank Shot? No. They benefit most greatly from skill boosting items, as they use skills the most. They rely most on their skills, not their combat ability or their magical prowess.

The usefulness of Skill Focus is, needless to say, contingent on the frequency of the use of the skill. Unfortunately, most archetypal adventurers do not rely on a single skill enough to warrant burning a feat on Skill Focus. Martial classes will be best to boost their fighting prowess, magic-users their spellcasting and there are a slew of useful feats for all (most notably Improved Initiative). The only PC adventuring archetypes who are primarily reliant on their skills are the rogue and the bard, and even here there are exception (e.g. the highly effective dual-wielding combat rogue or the archer rogue). Yet they rely on such a broad swathe of skills that to emphasise just one is perhaps foolish: they are better placed to take a +2/+2 skill.

The irony is that whilst my PCs almost never take skill-boosting feats, a good proportion of my NPCs take as many as they can. Particularly for those involved in intrigue, Skill Focus can give you the edge over your opponents. This strange polarity exists due to the nature of their role: whilst NPCs emphasise a narrow set of skills, PCs need either a broad range of skills, or are not dependent primarily on skills. As such, for a PC, Skill Focus is nigh useless.

 

[Al]

The problem with Skill Focus is that it is extremely useful for NPCs, and of limited usage for PCs. The reason is that many PCs will have to be broadly versatile, whilst NPCs can perform the same actions over and over.

Elder_Basilisk has constructed a very good case for Skill Focus, but the outstanding point that he has made is the one concerning NPCs. If a particular skill is your life's work and livelihood, it is definitely worthwhile taking a feat to boost your aptitude, and by extension, earning capacity and hence standard of living.

Moreover, for non-adventuring NPCs, most core feats are broadly useless. Why does a gemcutter need Weapon Focus? Is the town clerk really going to derive much use from Improved Initiative? Or a magistrate from Point Blank Shot? No. They benefit most greatly from skill boosting items, as they use skills the most. They rely most on their skills, not their combat ability or their magical prowess.

The usefulness of Skill Focus is, needless to say, contingent on the frequency of the use of the skill. Unfortunately, most archetypal adventurers do not rely on a single skill enough to warrant burning a feat on Skill Focus. Martial classes will be best to boost their fighting prowess, magic-users their spellcasting and there are a slew of useful feats for all (most notably Improved Initiative). The only PC adventuring archetypes who are primarily reliant on their skills are the rogue and the bard, and even here there are exception (e.g. the highly effective dual-wielding combat rogue or the archer rogue). Yet they rely on such a broad swathe of skills that to emphasise just one is perhaps foolish: they are better placed to take a +2/+2 feat.

The irony is that whilst my PCs almost never take skill-boosting feats, a good proportion of my NPCs take as many as they can. Particularly for those involved in intrigue, Skill Focus can give you the edge over your opponents. This strange polarity exists due to the nature of their role: whilst NPCs emphasise a narrow set of skills, PCs need either a broad range of skills, or are not dependent primarily on skills. As such, for a PC, Skill Focus is nigh useless.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Al,

You are exactly right with respect to the NPC/PC dichotomy on Skill Focus.

As a general rule, NPCs gain little mechanical advantage from breadth of ability. Either they have to be much higher level than the PCs or extremely focused, otherwise the PCs are going to walk all over them. NPCs' moments on the stage which is our game is too fleeting.

(This is not unrealistic. It is the rare NPC who has lived a life 1% as interesting, varied, and dangerous as the PCs.)

The logical corollary is when making NPCs it is usually not necessary to fully stat out more than one or two significant aspects of an NPC -- you can default to stock values or on the fly guestimates for everything else.

I do agree with the thrust of Elder-Basilisk's argument, that while Skill Focus may not be attractive from a powergaming perspective there are a number of situations where taking the feat is sensible and adequately rewarding.

 

[argo]

Forget all the math, the answer is much simpler than that. So long as it is still worthwhile to take max ranks in a skill then Skill Focus is a worthwhile feat because it lets you break the max ranks cap. That means that if a particular skill scales well with level (either by raising DC's or by giving greater rewards for a greater result) then Skill focus will be as valuable at a high level as it was at a low level.

The problem is that most non-opposed skill checks in DnD have DC's that top out somewhere about 25 with a few going as high as 30. This means that few characters take more than 10 or so ranks in a skill which means that by level 10 or so the only difference between a character with 13 ranks and a character with 10 ranks and skill focus is the latter had to spend a valuable feat. In contrast consider a character I played in a Star Wars game, he took both Gearhead and Skill Focus[computer use] and never regreted it because in that game DC's for computer use checks scale up into near epic levels.

Oh, and its good for cross-class skills too, if not exactly the most munchkin use of a feat.