When Skill Focus loses its value

Considering the way assuming DCs scaling directly with character level affects characters who don't have max ranks (ie, if it's not a class skill and it's not maxed, there's no point in having anything in it unless your stat bonus is HUGE), I think it's a good thing that most non-opposed DCs are static.

Even so, most skills have side benefits that apply when they're well above the normal range of expertise. For instance, a really really skilled tracker can track a week-old trail at full speed over rocky terrain even though there were three days of rain last week. A good climber can climb a sheer rock with almost no hand or footholds. A really good climber can do that at full speed even when it's slick with rain or ice. An OK rider can fight with his warhorse and take cover behind it without rolling. A superb rider can leap onto the back of a summoned celestial griffon (penalties for an unusual mount that isn't trained to handle a rider and for riding bareback) while wearing fullplate and then spur it into a diving charge against a foe at the bottom of the cliff and still attack and probably only has to roll for the quick mount. Etc. A competent diplomat takes a minute and the guards who were ready to throw him to the lions are willing to cut him a break. A truly exceptional diplomat shows up in the middle of a battle between dwarves and goblins and, despite being an elf, manages to convince them all to stop fighting for a while and give him and his party safe passage in six seconds, all despite being an elf. Similarly, a competent rogue (+14 search) can take twenty and find nearly any trap. (Of course, that means that buff spells will start wearing out before he's done searching the 10x10 room). A few ranks in swim lets the wizard keep his head above water when the ship goes down. A lot of ranks in swim lets Beowulf swim across the English channel in full armor, and carrying a sword during a storm. A really good rogue (>+24 search can find any trap while taking ten without using an elixir of vision (they're expensive so you don't want to use one just in case there's a trap and they're limited duration so you can't afford to use them for routine searching of a large area). The competent sneak says "give me three rounds before starting the attack and I'll sneak up and gak the sentry." The really good sneak says "we're attacking? I charge and gak the sentry this round. At -20 (for charging), my hide check is a 35, what's his spot?"

The fact that a lot of DCs are static means that PCs with really good skills can attempt legendary stunts, absorb the circumstance penalties, and still succeed. If all of the DCs scaled well with level, then PCs would need to max their skills to accomplish even mundane tasks. I, for one, am glad that's not the case.

argo said:
Forget all the math, the answer is much simpler than that. So long as it is still worthwhile to take max ranks in a skill then Skill Focus is a worthwhile feat because it lets you break the max ranks cap. That means that if a particular skill scales well with level (either by raising DC's or by giving greater rewards for a greater result) then Skill focus will be as valuable at a high level as it was at a low level.

The problem is that most non-opposed skill checks in DnD have DC's that top out somewhere about 25 with a few going as high as 30. This means that few characters take more than 10 or so ranks in a skill which means that by level 10 or so the only difference between a character with 13 ranks and a character with 10 ranks and skill focus is the latter had to spend a valuable feat. In contrast consider a character I played in a Star Wars game, he took both Gearhead and Skill Focus[computer use] and never regreted it because in that game DC's for computer use checks scale up into near epic levels.

Oh, and its good for cross-class skills too, if not exactly the most munchkin use of a feat.
 

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Elder-Basilisk said:
Considering the way assuming DCs scaling directly with character level affects characters who don't have max ranks (ie, if it's not a class skill and it's not maxed, there's no point in having anything in it unless your stat bonus is HUGE), I think it's a good thing that most non-opposed DCs are static.

....

The fact that a lot of DCs are static means that PCs with really good skills can attempt legendary stunts, absorb the circumstance penalties, and still succeed. If all of the DCs scaled well with level, then PCs would need to max their skills to accomplish even mundane tasks. I, for one, am glad that's not the case.

I didn't mean that the DC for performing the same task should increase. I meant that more skills should have more options for adding circumstance penalties and the like: creating those legendary stunts you talk about. Of course the DM can always handle this ad hoc (I do) but the point is that the core rules focus on more "normal" tasks (and usually assume magic will be used for anything else). So long as you can find a way to make a skill check of 30 or 35 valuable the Skill Focus feat will be equally valuable.
 

All of the stunts I mentioned can be constructed pretty easily using the limited DCs and circumstance modifiers listed in the PHB. I think diplomacy is the only one that I was using ad-hoc circumstance modifiers to get the DC above 35 (for moving an NPC from hostile to friendly in one round with a rushed diplomacy check).

Most of the skills that are neither opposed nor have significant circumstances listed in the description are things like craft, appraise, and profession skills. (And the only one of those where heroic DCs actually seem conceivable seems craft. I have difficulty imagining what a heroic appraise DC check would be--correctly guessing the going price for the distilled essence of an ex-paladin who fell as a result of bitterness for being unjustly convicted of witchcraft in both Baatorian green steel and Tan'ari assistance? That would be difficult but hardly seems within the appropriate sense of the skill).

argo said:
I didn't mean that the DC for performing the same task should increase. I meant that more skills should have more options for adding circumstance penalties and the like: creating those legendary stunts you talk about. Of course the DM can always handle this ad hoc (I do) but the point is that the core rules focus on more "normal" tasks (and usually assume magic will be used for anything else). So long as you can find a way to make a skill check of 30 or 35 valuable the Skill Focus feat will be equally valuable.
 

Interesting points from everyone on this thread.

Can't help but appreciate the NPC perspective, too -- the non-adventuring guy whose livelihood is based on one or two skills at professional levels, who only interacts with your world-trotting, monster-slaying, smattering-of-all-skills character party. He doesn't need to be well-rounded; he just needs to make a buck doing the one thing he does very, very well.

To that end, and noting others' comments here, it feels *good* to develop at least one skill to its ultimate max ... not necessarily out of "powergaming" motivations, but because of bragging rights and ego. To be able to say, "I am THE best at (X) skill!" and have your friends acknowledge the same, is just really cool. For me, that's usually picking a social interaction skill like Bluff and/or Gather Info. If you don't mind the exaggeration, it's a hoot to imagine my PC walking into a pub, ordering one ale, tossing it down, and then leaving with a full understanding of how the local prince has a raging case of herpes that he contracted from congress with a half-orc sorceress last week as he celebrated sealing a deal to trade a live baby dragon for 1 million gold. Oh, and his maid just ran off to give birth to his illegitimate child and is being hunted by the prince's younger brother.

One tankard of watered-down ale: 5 silver.
Nice tip to the barkeep: 5 gold.
Casual conversation with 35 Gather Info skill: priceless.

Looking at some maxed-out math, you get some interesting numbers...

Assume the PC starts with 18 Intelligence for +4 skill points per level. Human for +1 skill points per level. And rogue (natch!), at 8 base points per level.

* 1st through 7th level, garners a total of 130 skill points.
* At 4th and 8th level, the character bumps up his Int for another +1 modifier, so 8th through 15th level he garners 112 skill points.
* At 12th and 16th level, the character bumps up his Int for another +1 mod, so 16th through 20th level, her garners 75 skill points.
* Picking +2/+2 skill feats at character levels (1,3,6,etc.) yields 28 points. Human bonus feat +2/+2 at 1st level yields another 4 points.
* Rogue special ability at 10th, 13th, 16th and 19th level (+2/+2 again) yields 16 skill points more.

Total skill points (or their equivalent in feat bonuses) available for distribution over the smart rogues' 20-level career: 365. And that's before attribute bonuses, synergies, magic, and sexual favors to the DM.
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
Not so. Taking your example (hide), let's see how this plays out for our typical rogue who wants to do something rogueish--in this case, sneak into a fortified villa and steal some stuff.

Let's assume he's 8th level and has a 20 dex. With the boots and cloak of elvenkind, he has a +10 hide bonus. If he chugs the elixir of hiding, he has a +20 bonus. If he maxed ranks and had the magic items, he'll have a +21 bonus. If he maxed ranks, has the items, and chugs the potion, he'll have a +31 bonus.

A cloak of elvenkind provides a +5 circumstance bonus.
An elixer of hiding provides a +10 circumstance bonus.
They don't stack.

If your character had maxed ranks, has the items, and chugs the potion, he'll have a +26 bonus which, of course, would effect some of the numbers posted in your examples.
 

rrealm said:
A cloak of elvenkind provides a +5 circumstance bonus.
An elixer of hiding provides a +10 circumstance bonus.
They don't stack.
Only if you consider the cloak and the elixer to be of the same circumstance.
Circumstance modifiers stack with each other, unless they arise from essentially the same circumstance
-DMG, page 21
 

As Sledged points out, this is only true if the circumstances are considered to be the same. I think that a reasonable case could be made for that but not necessarily a conclusive one.

However, you will notice that, because of the exponential way that bonusses add up in opposed skill checks, it is the guy depending upon the items and the elixir without any skill ranks who is hurt the most by them not stacking--he is then unable to reach the same level as the guy who uses the items and skills, and would even fall behind a character who just had skills and stats (11 ranks, +5 dex=+16; +10 circumstance, +5 dex=+15).

rrealm said:
A cloak of elvenkind provides a +5 circumstance bonus.
An elixer of hiding provides a +10 circumstance bonus.
They don't stack.

If your character had maxed ranks, has the items, and chugs the potion, he'll have a +26 bonus which, of course, would effect some of the numbers posted in your examples.
 


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