When to roll initiative?

Quasqueton said:
But what about if the assassin rolls somewhere in the bottom of the initiative? Then you have a situation where the person starting the combat can't actually take an action until after others who don't yet even know combat is upon them.

What do the high initiative guards to do with their actions that come before the assassin provokes them?

This is exactly what the delay tactic is for.

PC: Okay I got a 20 on my initiative, can I go? Cool, alright I move past the guards!!
DM: Okay they take an AOO.
PC: But aren't they flatfooted?
DM: No they won initiative, they just delayed:)

Basically, the advantage of rolling good initiative for the guards in this case is they will not be flatfooted when the rogue tries something. If he tries to move away he provokes an AOO. If the guards roll bad initiative, then the rogue can get away without any AOO, that's the difference.
 

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Quasqueton said:
But what about if the assassin rolls somewhere in the bottom of the initiative? Then you have a situation where the person starting the combat can't actually take an action until after others who don't yet even know combat is upon them.

What do the high initiative guards to do with their actions that come before the assassin provokes them?

This is exactly what the delay tactic is for.

PC: Okay I got a 20 on my initiative, can I go? Cool, alright I move past the guards!!
DM: Okay they take an AOO.
PC: But aren't they flatfooted?
DM: No they won initiative, they just delayed:)

Basically, the advantage of rolling good initiative for the guards in this case is they will not be flatfooted when the rogue tries something. If he tries to move away he provokes an AOO. If the guards roll bad initiative, then the rogue can get away without any AOO, that's the difference.
 

Quasqueton said:
But what about if the assassin rolls somewhere in the bottom of the initiative? Then you have a situation where the person starting the combat can't actually take an action until after others who don't yet even know combat is upon them.

What do the high initiative guards to do with their actions that come before the assassin provokes them?

This is exactly what the delay tactic is for.

PC: Okay I got a 20 on my initiative, can I go? Cool, alright I move past the guards!!
DM: Okay they take an AOO.
PC: But aren't they flatfooted?
DM: No they won initiative, they just delayed:)

Basically, the advantage of rolling good initiative for the guards in this case is they will not be flatfooted when the rogue tries something. If he tries to move away he provokes an AOO. If the guards roll bad initiative, then the rogue can get away without any AOO, that's the difference.
 

Quasqueton said:
But what about if the assassin rolls somewhere in the bottom of the initiative? Then you have a situation where the person starting the combat can't actually take an action until after others who don't yet even know combat is upon them.

What do the high initiative guards to do with their actions that come before the assassin provokes them?

This is exactly what the delay tactic is for.

PC: Okay I got a 20 on my initiative, can I go? Cool, alright I move past the guards!!
DM: Okay they take an AOO.
PC: But aren't they flatfooted?
DM: No they won initiative, they just delayed:)

Basically, the advantage of rolling good initiative for the guards in this case is they will not be flatfooted when the rogue tries something. If he tries to move away he provokes an AOO. If the guards roll bad initiative, then the rogue can get away without any AOO, that's the difference.
 

Rel said:
To me, this is exactly the sort of thing a Ranger/Assassin should be able to do. Can't you hear one of the guards explaining this to his captain?

"We walked up to him carefully and had him up against the wall but then, before we could even move, he had put a dagger into Bob's eye and hamstrung Wally! But after that he didn't stand a chance once we surrounded him."

Yes, absolutely a clever assassin can do that, but I'd say by rules and sense only if he uses the Feint action.

If he GETS the initiative and doesn't feint, he can make a normal attack. Or run away. Maybe he'll crit. But the sneak attack requires more subtrefuge, represented by Feint.
 

A few thoughts.

First, one possible solution is pre-roll initiative. When everyone sits down to start the game, roll initiative. When an encounter takes place, the DM has everyone's initiative all set, but you don't use it until an appropriate situation arises.

This is only vaguely relevant to this situation, but it does seem to help speed up combat at times. See below for where I would use this.

Second, the guards, and the PC should not be surprised in this situation. But, that does not mean they cannot be flatfooted. So, how does that work when the assassin goes last and is the one initiating an attack (or any situation where the attacker is lower than the defenders in init order)? I have always determined it to be watching the attacker initiate the attack, but the highest init folks are able to respond quickly. Everyone sees that the situation just escalated, but some people are just quicker responding than others. Maybe even quicker than the person initiating aggression.

An aside:
It could be argued that this should be Bluff/Sense Motive. I disagree because that is not suitable for initiative. However, if the Assassin in this example wanted to try for a surprise attack, I might allow a Bluff/Sense Motive check. In this case, the assassin wants to attack, but is hiding any of the body language that would normally clue somebody into their hostile intent. But, that is a house-rule and could easily give too much power to Bluff in your game. YMMV.

Back to my point:
Using this rationale allows me to envision situations where everyone is tense and ready for the encounter to escalate. In the case of town guards, maybe they have the crossbows ready, but not pointed directly at the assassin. He starts to move in a hostile fashion, but not quick enough (low init), all the guards notice the aggression and raise their corssbows. Now, they can either attack because he was "going for his dagger" or they might delay. The assassin, seeing that he has 5 guards delaying on him decides to drop the dagger instead of sticking it in someone. If the assassin had won initiative, then he could have drawn a dagger and stuck it in Bob's eye before anyone else had time to raise their crossbows, but they aren't surprised.

How would I have run this encounter? I would have had each combatants init ready ahead of time. As soon as somebody escalated the situation, I would have dropped into combat time and resolved in combat order then. As soon as one person declares an attack action, then it moves into combat time and the initiator might not go first. For my games, this makes my players think a little more before acting. Just because they were the first ones to decide to attack doesn't mean they get to attack first. It has also resulted in spellcasters suddenly casting 'Comprehend Languages' that was misinterpreted as an offensive spell and dropping the group into a combat. (Sure, that might make me sound like a real bastard. But, let me ask you how a group of PC's without spellcraft would react if a group of armed mercenaries they meet on the road suddenly started waving his hands around and chanting? Would they assume he was attacking or would they assume he was doing something benign? It works both ways.)
 

BardStephenFox said:
(Sure, that might make me sound like a real bastard. But, let me ask you how a group of PC's without spellcraft would react if a group of armed mercenaries they meet on the road suddenly started waving his hands around and chanting? Would they assume he was attacking or would they assume he was doing something benign? It works both ways.)

I guess that depends on how paranoid your PCs are. How do they know they are mercenaries? Are they holding a sign up stating that "We are mercenaries"? If they are well known mercenaries, and have a bad reputation for being hostile, then of course the PCs would be on their guard. If the PCs don't know they are mercenaries, and they look like every other armed fighter in the world, why would they assume they are doing something hostile?
 

A suggested rules-expansion for this:

* Total Bluff: a character may spend two full rounds taking no standard (or full) actions at all in order to make this check. Anyone who fails a contested sense-motive check with the character loses her dexterity bonus against the character on his next turn. Furthermore, any readied actions whose trigger is based on the character's action fail to trigger. unless the readier succeeds on the sense motive check.

Certain move or move-equivalent actions may, entirely at the DM's discretion, be disallowed in conjuction with this tactic.

In other words, you can either "play dead" or "play cooperative" for a couple of rounds; then, when you want to act, you catch everyone by surprise.

How does that sound?

In answer to the main question, I tend to roll initiative whenever anyone (including an NPC) wants.

Daniel
 

RigaMortus said:
I guess that depends on how paranoid your PCs are. How do they know they are mercenaries? Are they holding a sign up stating that "We are mercenaries"? If they are well known mercenaries, and have a bad reputation for being hostile, then of course the PCs would be on their guard. If the PCs don't know they are mercenaries, and they look like every other armed fighter in the world, why would they assume they are doing something hostile?

This is the difference between straight up surprise and initiative.

If the pcs know the guys are dangerous and are on their guard, then any hostile action triggers initiative. Whoever wins goes first. Basically it would be like an orc reaching for his dagger and legolas pulling out his bow and shooting him with an arrow.

Now for just a group the pcs didn't think was hostile, that group would get surprise on the pcs. If one of them cast a spell or made an attack, the pcs would take it, then initiative is rolled.
 

RigaMortus said:
I guess that depends on how paranoid your PCs are. How do they know they are mercenaries? Are they holding a sign up stating that "We are mercenaries"? If they are well known mercenaries, and have a bad reputation for being hostile, then of course the PCs would be on their guard. If the PCs don't know they are mercenaries, and they look like every other armed fighter in the world, why would they assume they are doing something hostile?

This is the difference between straight up surprise and initiative.

If the pcs know the guys are dangerous and are on their guard, then any hostile action triggers initiative. Whoever wins goes first. Basically it would be like an orc reaching for his dagger and legolas pulling out his bow and shooting him with an arrow.

Now for just a group the pcs didn't think was hostile, that group would get surprise on the pcs. If one of them cast a spell or made an attack, the pcs would take it, then initiative is rolled.
 

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