When to roll initiative?

[Pielorinho]

Stalker, is the "repeat" button on your left-mouse button set too high or something?

Daniel

 

[Rel]

Yes, absolutely a clever assassin can do that, but I'd say by rules and sense only if he uses the Feint action.

If he GETS the initiative and doesn't feint, he can make a normal attack. Or run away. Maybe he'll crit. But the sneak attack requires more subtrefuge, represented by Feint.

I will agree with you if in fact the DM said "Roll Initiative." as the guards were approaching or when they first spotted the assassin. If initiative was not rolled until they had him up against the wall then, by definition, the guards are Flat Footed until they've acted on their initiative.

 

[Stalker0]

Stalker, is the "repeat" button on your left-mouse button set too high or something?

Daniel

The forums have been really flaky on my comp lately, anyone been having a prob?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I was having difficulty with the forums this morning but they've righted themselves now.

WRT initiative, I think that the DM made the appropriate call initially.

Initiative should be rolled at the outset of hostilities--not before--and it's not at all unreasonable for characters to be flatfooted or for characters who roll well on initiative to go before the person who initiated combat.

As I see it, initiative is often like determining what happens in a wild west shootout. The characters are observing each other and then one goes for his gun. (Or looks like he's going for it--in the situation described above, I'd let the assassin make a sleight of hand check to get a surprise round in which to draw his weapon). If the other beats him on initiative, he can draw and shoot first. In most D&D settings, it's quite likely that the guards are the kind of people who will see the assassin going for his weapon and immediately beat him senseless or kill him; it's unlikely they'll delay or take the full defense action until the assassin actually attacks.

 

[hong]

But what about if the assassin rolls somewhere in the bottom of the initiative? Then you have a situation where the person starting the combat can't actually take an action until after others who don't yet even know combat is upon them.

What do the high initiative guards to do with their actions that come before the assassin provokes them?

They get to do whatever they want. That might involve attacking the assassin outright, or readying an attack as soon as he tries to swing at them.

Say the guards are the PCs, and the DM tells them, "Roll initiative." They then know the assassin is *going* to do something, but he hasn't actually done anything yet.

He hasn't done anything _within the framework of the combat rules_. This is not the same thing as not doing anything _within the context of ingame reality_. The former is hard and fast, assuming you work within the rules. The latter can be as fluid and flexible as you want.

So the assassin does something to tip off the guards, whether it's a sudden movement for the hidden dagger, or starting a lunge at someone. However, he isn't quite fast enough to finish the job, and the guards can interrupt him.

 

[0-hr]

What do the high initiative guards to do with their actions that come before the assassin provokes them?

In this case, the guards would have actions readied (ie. "to attack the assassin if he did anything offensive"). The assassin makes his move, but the guards are too fast for him - exactly what the initiative system is meant to represent.

The only problem is if the assassin, seeing that he lost init, then decides to abort his action. I believe he can do that by the rules, but as DM, I would hold him to it - or at least make him flinch enough that the guards thought he was about to try something (and so they jump him, even if by mistake).

 

[Amaroq]

At this point the character did mind, and he called for an Initiative Roll.

I think that is the mistake, actually. In my game, the character states *an action*. "I push off the wall and try to draw my hidden dagger and stab one of the guards."

The GM responds, "Okay, we'll need to roll initiative."

Now you get the following:

The assassin makes his move, but the guards are too fast for him - exactly what the initiative system is meant to represent.

Precisely. If he wins initiative, he managed to catch them with their guard lowered just enough - we have him outnumbered five to one, and he's been cooperative so far. They might even legitimately *be* flatfooted, e.g., not expecting an attack and prepared to dodge, parry, and block on an instant's notice.

If he loses initiative, the following is no longer a problem:

The only problem is if the assassin, seeing that he lost init, then decides to abort his action. I believe he can do that by the rules, but as DM, I would hold him to it - or at least make him flinch enough that the guards thought he was about to try something (and so they jump him, even if by mistake).

He's declared a hostile action. Now, let's say he sees that the situation has changed and wants to take a *different* action... that still plays out fine if the GM ad-libs momentarily. "Okay, while you were drawing your dagger, the guards all fired at you. Four of them hit, and you're down to 20 hit points. Now your dagger is in your right hand, and you're facing them, but your back is to the wall. What do you do?"

The character has a number of graceful outs - he can continue the attack, decide to try and Tumble past them, drop the dagger and try to surrender, etc.

 

[Ovinomancer]

There are so many good posts on this subject that I will not weigh in on the topic. I'd just be repeating.

Related idea:
Assign a circumstance bonus/penalty to the initiator due to the circumstances of the situation. In the named situation I would give the assassin a -2 for being against the wall (difficult position), and +2 to the guards for being alert. If the assassin still wins initiative, then let him catch the guards flatfooted... he's earned it!

Just my opinion.

 

[Stalker0]

There are so many good posts on this subject that I will not weigh in on the topic. I'd just be repeating.

Related idea:
Assign a circumstance bonus/penalty to the initiator due to the circumstances of the situation. In the named situation I would give the assassin a -2 for being against the wall (difficult position), and +2 to the guards for being alert. If the assassin still wins initiative, then let him catch the guards flatfooted... he's earned it!

Just my opinion.

Definately not a bad house rule.

 

[Silverglass]

But what about if the assassin rolls somewhere in the bottom of the initiative? Then you have a situation where the person starting the combat can't actually take an action until after others who don't yet even know combat is upon them.

What do the high initiative guards to do with their actions that come before the assassin provokes them?

Say the guards are the PCs, and the DM tells them, "Roll initiative." They then know the assassin is *going* to do something, but he hasn't actually done anything yet. They could kill him before he gets his action, and well, how does that look?

"You guys killed him when he was unarmed?"

"Well, he was going to go for his weapon in a moment if we didn't act."

"How do you know?"

"We had to roll initiative."

Quasqueton

What you are missing is that everything happens at the same time in combat, as a method of adjudicating things without taking 10 times as long we resolve the actions at certain points (Star Fleet Battles anyone?).

If the Assasin declares combat by saying "I do x" then you roll initiative. If the Assasin wins they were quick enough to get their licks in before the guards are fully ready to respond, if the Assasin loses the initiative then they start the hostile act but the guards blows get in first. Its not the Assasin going first and everyone waiting until they have finished and then acting.

Cinematically the Assasin starts drawing his dagger (which kicks off the combat round) and the guard are either slow enough that the Assasins attacks go in first or they are fast enough to get a blow or two in before the Assasin strikes. So the report would be "He went for his dagger and we had to kill him".