When [W]eapon keyword exploits don't use a [W]?

[Bagpuss]

Flavor-wise are "frost fists" or "vorpal fists" OK with you?

The rules are pretty clear again here. Unless it has x[W] then you don't apply the weapons special abilities for damage.

If you look at the Secondary Hit effect of All Bets are Off it says 1d6+Strength modifier. You won't get Weapon Focus, Hit-Crit or anything else. You just get 1d6+Str Mod and target is dazed until the end of your next turn.

What about "resounding roar" or "duelist's roar"?

Same here.

If you want to imagine it a pommel strike in All Bets Are Off, where the enhancement on attack works, because the blade is still finely crafted lighter and easier to wield but the business end isn't in use so it isn't sharper or colder, than a normal pommel.

And for Lion of Battle it's the intimidation factor of someone wielding an ancient weapon of power, but again the business end doesn't come into play.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The rules are pretty clear again here. Unless it has x[W] then you don't apply the weapons special abilities for damage.

Hmm... I don't get that from the rules, myself.

"Magic weapons and implements grant their enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls only when you use powers delivered through the weapon or the implement. ... A power's description indicates if it functions through the use of a weapon or an implement."

All Bets Are Off has the Weapon keyword; it is a power delivered through a weapon. If that weapon is a magic weapon, it grants its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls when you use All Bets Are Off. 1d6+Str is a damage roll; the weapon will grant its enhancement bonus to the damage roll.

Likewise, with a critical on the secondary attack, the magic weapon will deal its critical damage.

With a Resounding weapon, you could use the Daily power to Daze an opponent you hit with the secondary attack of Lion's Roar.

The Duelist's weapon will have little effect with Lion's Roar; you can't use the daily power for the secondary attack (it's a minor action, which means you have to activate it before you use Lion's Roar, which means the next target you hit will be the primary attack), and since the secondary attack doesn't deal damage, the combat advantage effect is meaningless).

-Hyp.

 

[Bagpuss]

I may have jumped the gun, based on something I saw from a CSR. You are correct.

Although it does say (page 276)

"Roll for damage indicated in the power description. If you're attacking using a weapon for the attack, the damage is some multiple of your weapon damage dice."

Which could be read to read that if you aren't using some multiple of the damage dice then you aren't attacking with a weapon. But we already know we are from the keyword.

Arrrgh!

 

[FadedC]

By the RAW there seems to be no question that you add your bonuses, and even by the RAI it seems unlikely that the designers intended for these powers to become increasingly useless as you level due to their low chance of hitting. It is true that All Bets are Off has a +2 on the secondary attack, but that is frequently true for a fighter's secondary attacks in general. So there's no evidence that the +2 is there to make up for lack of enhancement bonus (which it in fact would not do at all even at the level you got it).

 

[jaelis]

I suppose I have to agree with the majority opinion here, but I'm still troubled a little bit. Would the same reasoning apply to Twin Strike? In other words, I have a vorpal longsword in one hand and a nonmagical one in the other. Would the vorpal bonuses apply to both attacks, by the same reasoning as above?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I suppose I have to agree with the majority opinion here, but I'm still troubled a little bit. Would the same reasoning apply to Twin Strike? In other words, I have a vorpal longsword in one hand and a nonmagical one in the other. Would the vorpal bonuses apply to both attacks, by the same reasoning as above?

Twin Strike specifies that your making attacks with your main hand and off-hand weapons; the accessory for one attack is your main hand weapon, and the accessory for the other is your off-hand weapon.

Lion's Roar doesn't specify different weapons, so the accessory is the same weapon for the entire power.

-Hyp.

 

[jaelis]

I guess it just comes down to ignoring flavor text. Even if it says things that sound mechanically meaningful. Like, if the flavor text said "you attack with your primary weapon and follow up with your off-hand weapon" but the attack just said "two attacks" then you could make both attacks with the same weapon.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

On a related issue, One thing I am still unclear about:

If a power does not have a real "roll" for damage, do I get to add the enhancement bonus or my Weapon Focus feat to the damage? (These might be two questions, since I don't remember the exact wording of Weapon Focus, which can make a difference.)
My primary example for such a power would be Furious Smash, one of the Warlords At-Wills.

 

[Bagpuss]

This is a response from Customer Services that caused my earlier error I think.


Q: Does Dwarven Weapon Training effect static damage, such as that done to a secondary target by Cleave or that done on a miss by Reaping Strike?

A:Both Cleave and Reaping Strike call for damage based on the character's Strength Modifier. That means no additional damage added from other feats, racial benefits, spells, or powers. 4E reads very literally and when the book stays Strength modifier, it really means Strength modifier only!

This is what made me think 1d6+Str Mod, only did 1d6 + Str Mod. So according to Customer Services Furious Smash would only do Strength Modifier damage, no more, no less.

Of course RAW I'm not sure there is anything to back up the CS statement, but that's nothing new.

Edit: Having seen the pointer to page 57 below, it seems clear that 1d6+Str Mod is a damage roll so therefore would get bonuses from the weapon. But any static damage value would not.

However: (from page 57) Some powers add modifiers to attack rolls or damage rolls. These modifiers apply to any roll of the dice, but not to ongoing damage or other static, nonvariable effects.

This only mentions powers, do weapons normal bonuses count as powers? Is everything a power as it were?

 

[yu gnomi]

Damage bonuses are only applied to damage rolls. So Furious Smash damage and similar "defined" damage (e.g. Cleave, Reaping Strike, & every ongoing damage effect I've come across) never add any damage bonus.

Pg 57 of PHB states that these bonuses cannot be applied to non-variable effects. This includes attribute based damage, although in Algebra terms they are using the attribute as a variable.