Where the hell is my d20 muse?

GlassJaw said:
Exactly. I think most of the feats you listed are very over-the-top. As a player, I probably would never spend a feat slot on one of those. That's just me.

Not sure who you're referencing there, but I definitely don't want to add new feats-- just new ways for AP's to boost the feats you have.

The great thing about the GT AP system is it's simplicity. It's fast and easy to use.

I agree-- I'm up against that.

I'm really not a fan of altering game mechanics to incorporate AP's. I think AP's should be above and beyond specific feats and skills. They should be universal.

But I don't think Wulf necessarily intended to start a discussion on AP's specifically. Sounds like he has a bit of writer's block.

A discussion on APs is fine.

GlassJaw has the advantage of having "playtested" the work I'm writing at the moment, which plays with APs in a big way.

I'm interested in exploring APs and nailing down exactly how they impact play-- especially low magic play.

Did you know that the value of a PCs gear is (according to Upper_Krust) equivalent to a feat? +0.2 CR per level.

I think APs easily add that right back in again-- but I want to make sure that APs can do the things that magic items do that aren't necessarily specific to the "numbers game."

(EDIT: Although, where CR is concerned, APs should be restricted almost entirely to the numbers...)

That's where I'd like to stretch a bit.
 

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In my games, there's always been the possibility of a 'gimme'. Roll real well and have a cool idea that's both cinematically appropriate and not game-breaking, and there's always the chance I'll just say 'sure' instead of making you roll for it.

Action points to me represent an 'automatic gimme' -- rather than relying on GM largesse, it becomes something the player can kinda count on. To balance it, you've got to tone down the effect somewhat. For example, players with dodge that say 'I dodged him and he missed really badly -- can I sneak attack him?'. Adding an option to the 'Dodge' feat to spend an AP to treat a single opponent who missed you as flatfooted during your next action, and ta-daa, a 'gimme' without requiring the GM to make a decision. (Not I think the GM making a decision is bad, it's just another thing that he has to stop to think about, and you have to worry about favoring more creative players).

I much prefer these kinds of things to reams of special-purpose feats that either never get taken or encourage characters to become one-trick ponies (Imp. Trip/Sunder, etc).
 

I've been thinking alot about rules subsystems, particular in regard to breaking d20 out of the fantasy genre.

Combat in d20 is really a subsystem; it has its own set of variables and rules; it allows for a variety of options within a combat and differentiation of combat roles and specialties between characters, either as opponents or allies. Spycraft does the same thing with chases.

A subsystem makes a task interesting, allowing for enough differentiation in that kind of activity to make repeated instances of it still exciting.

There are lots of considerations in this question. I always laugh when I think about picking up the Star Wars RPG and seeing that Stormtroopers have Profession (stormtrooper). I think I understand what they're trying to do (maybe the bureaucratic elements of the system), but it seems like what it is to be a stormtrooper has already been broken down by the system into attack bonuses, intimidate bonuses, feats, and the combat system in general.

I consider the lack of these subsystems a problem when simulating certain genres; in a science fiction setting, it would seem that something like computer use or starship repair would be important enough of an event to have a subsystem that makes such problem solving interesting. It's just not fun to be playing a sci-fi game, with your broken starship hurtling towards the sun, and to reduce the fate of the game to a single die roll (or even a complex skill check). Forget the consequences for the campaign in particular; what I'm talking about is that here we have a pivotal moment within a certain genre being decided by a simple "roll high" mechanic.

It's as if one were playing a D&D campaign and allowed the characters to make a Profession (adventurer) check vs. a dungeon's DC to determine whether they successfully looted it and killed the monsters. That is fine for tasks not central to the genre in question, but not for anything which is genre-defining.

So what I am wondering, and I don't have time at the present to explore myself, is whether something like computer use could be broken down into abstract categories like Spycraft does with chases, covering things from hacking to programming to repair. The same might be done with mechanics. Ideally, the systems would be so abstract that it would not matter how advanced the technology was; a well designed set of repair mechanics might work as well for a steampunk game as for Scotty on the Enterprise. A good set of gambling rules could be used for poker in 19th century San Francisco and sabacc on Coruscant.

A big concern for any such systems would be plugability; it would be nice to be able to adopt the gambling rules the day they come out, without having to substantially rewrite characters in an existing campaign.

For instance, maybe computers would be broken down into subskills, just like AC, saves, attack bonuses (ranged and melee), speed, and initiative are different bonuses in combat. X ranks in Computers could give you aX subranks to divide among Computers subskills, allowing characters to be differentiated and to facilitate a variety of action options in task resolution.

Edit: Also, plugability is important because sometimes I might want to have a simple computers check for a mundane task, like opening a door.

Another concern, since most of my examples have been cerebral actions (though there is certainly room for physical subsystems, like sports), is how much to leave for players to figure out (like giving them a riddle) and what to leave to an effective use of game mechanics, like in combat.

So, yeah. Maybe that's worth thinking about. You're certainly good enough to pull something off that could add alot to the game.

I would buy a book with a handful of subsystems (like TFT) to expand the genre options for d20 in a heartbeat.
 
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I like the idea of super action feats (or whatever you're going to call them). I am of the opinion (as opposed to a couple of posters) that more options are generally good - and these are VERY easy to take or leave as you please.

As for the specific example of Dodge - well...not every feat needs to have a super version. Surely you're not going to write up "Super Skill Focus" are you?
 

The_Universe said:
As for the specific example of Dodge - well...not every feat needs to have a super version. Surely you're not going to write up "Super Skill Focus" are you?

True, but I also don't want to make the mistake of only covering the Fighter feats. (Cause they are the easiest.)

But for the record:

Super Skill Focus: Spend an action point to confirm a critical success on a natural roll of 19 or 20.
 

DonAdam said:
Huge snip-- read the original above.

Adam, you raise a great point with regard to subsystems.

The biggest concern I would have in that regard is what to do with the other characters. You definitely DO NOT want something like the decking rules in Shadowrun: an entire subsystem for one member of the party.

I think a prime example of what you are talking about is seen in the Vehicle chapter of GT, which attempts to create a subsystem for dogfights/chases. I think Hot Pursuit did a great job of "fixing" what I had done by providing more options for the non-Driver participants in the chase. (I knew I should have done it, I think I just got lazy-- fortuntely barsoomcore did a great job blowing the system out.)
 

I am of the opinion (as opposed to a couple of posters) that more options are generally good - and these are VERY easy to take or leave as you please.

True, they are easy to take or leave. They are also very easy to ignore altogether.

I think we might be getting into the market research realm. For me, I already have too many options at my disposal. I have gigs of pdfs and shelves full of books and I probably don't even use 10% of it. I got to the point where I had to stop reading products with "stuff". I was spending all my time trying to decide what to use and what not to use and how everything would fit together than actually working on the campaign and playing. I want things that will make my life easier not innundate me with more stuff I read through and check for balance issues.

Bottom line - I don't want more crunchy options. Am I the average consumer? I have no idea. Probably not.

I want books with ideas. I love Green Ronin's Mythic Vista series. Each book has new "stuff" in it but it's tailored to specific setting. Products like that give me a lot more ideas than a pdf with a bunch of new feats and prestige classes.
 

Wulf Ratbane said:
True, but I also don't want to make the mistake of only covering the Fighter feats. (Cause they are the easiest.)

But for the record:

Super Skill Focus: Spend an action point to confirm a critical success on a natural roll of 19 or 20.
Well that turned out better than I could have expected.

I like the idea, and would love a product that included them. :)
 

Other characters are definitely an issue; ideally you'd want something that can be run concurrently with other events (I'm hacking into the computer system while my friends hold off the guards).

You'd also want to allow multiple people to participate in the task at hand.

Another option is to have certain parts of the subsystem that can be played by the other characters; when I ran a Firefly one-shot recently, one of the characters had to play in a mah jong game, and the other players played the other gamblers.
 

GlassJaw said:
I want books with ideas. I love Green Ronin's Mythic Vista series. Each book has new "stuff" in it but it's tailored to specific setting. Products like that give me a lot more ideas than a pdf with a bunch of new feats and prestige classes.

Bottom line - I don't want more crunchy options. Am I the average consumer? I have no idea. Probably not.

Well, you're far afield of where I am at the moment-- with a little PDF with a lot of crunchy ideas designed for low-magic characters to kick it up a notch.

I just feel like what I have now (really, about a dozen pages of typical Bad Axe content density) somehow falls just a little short.

It's not like me to abhor brevity.

Maybe what I really need to add is just a little more exposition on the numbers behind action points-- what it means to take magic items away and replace them with action points.
 

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