Where the hell is my d20 muse?

[Wulf Ratbane]

Using Wulf's numbers above, an AP 'set' costs 1666gp.

Ah, you're on the right track with the analysis, but starting off with a fallacy. There's no such thing as an AP "set." What's listed above are guidelines for valuing a single AP.

The actual value of an AP varies, depending on what you use it for. It's most expensive use is to boost AC: 612.5 gp value each use. If you ONLY spent your APs on boosting defense, they could be worth way more in cash value than a low-level character normally has access to.

If you go by the stock wealth/level guidelines:

A character going from 2nd to 3rd should accumulate 1800gp in wealth

Now you're back on the right track, analysis-wise-- at this rate, a character going from 2nd to 3rd could afford only 3 "defense" APs-- but he could afford a sh*tload of "healing" APs.

Again, IF action points were magic items. They're not, but the purpose is to examine how they could be.

Part of the problem is that the wealth guidelines assume a mix of permanent items you use forever (eg an iouon stone), some you use for a couple levels (that +1 sword that you eventually drop for the Holy Avenger), some that are consumed and gone (potions, scrolls), and some that are of dubious value to you but you keep around on the off chance you'll need it (arrow of vampire slaying).

I disagree emphatically with that assumption. There's nothing in the wealth guidelines at all that assumes a mix of permanent items. That "assumption" is already built into the much higher cost of permanent items as compared to charged items. So the actual gp value of a character's magic items is consistent in assumed "power/permanance."

In an organic campaign, I'd think you'd see very little AP use except in dire emergencies up to 8th or 9th, as the characters are relatively cash poor and are still getting basic equipment. Past that, though, cash outstrips their ability to spend it, and you'll start seeing APs a lot.

As it turns out, 9th level is the "break point" where the value of APs (even assuming the maximum value) starts to fall behind the gp value a character should have.

So, the power of an AP is more or less fixed (plusses to hits probably matter less at high levels, plusses to saves probably more, use of a feat constant, etc).

One fix for this is to (a) increase the AP die with levels, which I recommend and (b) change the way APs work at high levels (which I have also done, but which you will have to wait and see). Suffice to say that the average bonus of an AP flexes with character level, on a couple of different fronts; and in addition, as outlined above, the value of an AP varies widely depending on what you do with it.

One more thing I'd like to mention is not to focus solely on the refreshing AP pool. There are also those APs you gain from the GM from "bad stuff," which I reckon make up about equally for your opportunities to spend APs to confirm crits and successes.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I disagree emphatically with that assumption. There's nothing in the wealth guidelines at all that assumes a mix of permanent items. That "assumption" is already built into the much higher cost of permanent items as compared to charged items. So the actual gp value of a character's magic items is consistent in assumed "power/permanance."

Is it bad form to quote yourself?

Let me put this argument in another context.

Take an 8th level character and kit him out with magic items-- permanent, charged, semi-useless, whatever you like.

Then match him up against his clone-- only his clone has 9 APs instead of any magic items.

1) How do we ensure that the characters are an even match in the context of CR (which is concerned only with the single encounter at hand); and

2) How do we ensure that the characters remain an even match across 13.3333 encounters (when we assume that the AP pool refreshes).

If we assume that UK's calculations are correct, the no-magic character starts out 1.6 CR behind the magic-kitted character (0.2 * level).

Will the APs make up the gap?

How much of a bonus do they need to provide to make up the gap?

Can they make up the gap without having to spend more than 25% of his APs in any single encounter?

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Ah, you're on the right track with the analysis, but starting off with a fallacy. There's no such thing as an AP "set." What's listed above are guidelines for valuing a single AP.

The point of referring to them as a set was to come to some sort of 'average'. Since there is no way to determine how often a particular use will come into play, the 'set' was just a shorthand way of saying 'The character can do some mix of the following things'. Just like the character might have a +1 sword, a potion of healing, gauntlets of Dex +2, etc.

The high cost of boosting AC skews the numbers, though. Ignore that and the cost of an AP drops a fair bit, making them more common at low levels and even more trivial at high. I disagree with the book cost of increasing the AC, though.

I disagree emphatically with that assumption. There's nothing in the wealth guidelines at all that assumes a mix of permanent items. That "assumption" is already built into the much higher cost of permanent items as compared to charged items. So the actual gp value of a character's magic items is consistent in assumed "power/permanance."

I disagree with your disagreement Costs for permanent items are artificially low, especially for weapons, armor, stat and save bonuses, etc. (Or, conversely, charged items are disproportionally expensive).

Wealth guidelines per level I think impact differently for an organic character that progresses from 1 to 20 than it does for a character built at 20th level. It also matters how much control the player has over the character's equipment.

One fix for this is to (a) increase the AP die with levels, which I recommend and (b) change the way APs work at high levels (which I have also done, but which you will have to wait and see). Suffice to say that the average bonus of an AP flexes with character level, on a couple of different fronts; and in addition, as outlined above, the value of an AP varies widely depending on what you do with it.

Agreed. But, if we're trying to equate AP=Magic Items, I'd prefer to see APs become less common at higher levels (or, rather, used more for special abilities) Part (for me, anyway) of being 'grim' is smoothing that curve that makes a 20th level character 10x more powerful than a 10th level character. Just as I don't like the fact that D&D characters become all about their gear, I don't want to see high-level GT characters become all about throwing down APs every roll. A 9th level character could use an AP for every attack (10 attacks per encounter, 13 encounters per level) and probably every save, to boot.

One more thing I'd like to mention is not to focus solely on the refreshing AP pool. There are also those APs you gain from the GM from "bad stuff," which I reckon make up about equally for your opportunities to spend APs to confirm crits and successes.

I considered that, but I'm not sure that's fair. For one thing, crits favor the NPCs over the long run, so an AP awarded by the GM I think is worth less than one used by the PCs. The GM has an unlimited supply of action points; the PCs don't.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

A 9th level character could use an AP for every attack (10 attacks per encounter, 13 encounters per level) and probably every save, to boot.

Back the train up. A 9th level character has 9 APs (5 + half his level, rounded down).

Nowhere in here am I suggesting that I want characters to be able to "buy" an equivalent supply of APs to their wealth.

What I'm suggesting is that the value of an AP should approximate what a normal character, kitted out with magic items appropriate to his wealth-by-level, is able to bring to bear.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

What I'm suggesting is that the value of an AP should approximate what a normal character, kitted out with magic items appropriate to his wealth-by-level, is able to bring to bear.

Does the calculus change if one uses a slow XP advancement? It seems to. In such a case, magic items gain increased value over magic items in a faster XP advancement for purposes of AP approximation. I mean, APs recharge when a new level is gained, and slower XP advancement means less frequent AP recharging.

Magic items don't have the same problems. PCs can always find more charge-use items to keep up their GP value of items, and always on magic items are... always on.

 

[Psion]

Unorthodox bards have a d20 muse...

We now return you to your... musings... in progress.