Where the hell is my d20 muse?

[Kelleris]

Maybe what I really need to add is just a little more exposition on the numbers behind action points-- what it means to take magic items away and replace them with action points.

If you're going that route, I think some guidelines for DMs to determine when and how to add new action point effects or adjudicate things like Rodrigo Istalindir's suggestions on the fly would be helpful. I'm not normally an "advice for the DM" fan, but some explanation of what bonuses are equivalent to an action point would be nice. They're kinda tricky to judge because of the player-choice aspect.

 

[Henry]

Maybe what I really need to add is just a little more exposition on the numbers behind action points-- what it means to take magic items away and replace them with action points.

I wouldn't mind it myself --especially since when d20 Modern first came out and I suggested what action points were really for (as a bolster for having no magic items), some people responded like I'd suggested that humans were from Mars.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm not normally an "advice for the DM" fan, but some explanation of what bonuses are equivalent to an action point would be nice.

Gotcha covered. I've broken out the averages of "exploding" action dice, different sizes of action dice, and the averages from multiple action dice as well.

I was quite surprised by the fact that exploding action dice don't really change the average all that dramatically-- but damn it's exciting when they explode! We watched CarlZog roll-- what was it?-- about 8 sixes in a row on a d6.

But what I haven't really explored (but will!) is how those bonuses match up against magical bonuses. One could put a price tag on action points as if they were magic items, and I think this would be helpful to show how far they go towards filling that gap.

I just have to decide how to prove out the math.

 

[GlassJaw]

I've broken out the averages of "exploding" action dice, different sizes of action dice, and the averages from multiple action dice as well.

Didn't I do that for you? Oh wait, that's right - you didn't have the Excel Data Analysis toolpak. Did you ever end up getting it? I probably still have that file kicking around. I think I did an average of like 1000 iterations or something.

We watched CarlZog roll-- what was it?-- about 8 sixes in a row on a d6.

I think it was 5-6 but still exciting nonetheless.

I think some guidelines for DMs to determine when and how to add new action point effects or adjudicate things like Rodrigo Istalindir's suggestions on the fly would be helpful. I'm not normally an "advice for the DM" fan, but some explanation of what bonuses are equivalent to an action point would be nice. They're kinda tricky to judge because of the player-choice aspect.

I probably would like something like this as well. I always think of AP's as a universal mechanic that's is consistent for everyone or a device that allows PC's to do something above and beyond (i.e. heroic) their normal abilities. I want to players to be creative with AP's - I don't want a book full of feats that use them.

But what I haven't really explored (but will!) is how those bonuses match up against magical bonuses. One could put a price tag on action points as if they were magic items, and I think this would be helpful to show how far they go towards filling that gap.

I just have to decide how to prove out the math.

The math isn't the difficulty, it's determingin how valuable the finite amount of AP's is. For example, a single d6 AP is worth more than a +1 weapon for a single die roll because the average bonus gained from the d6 roll is 3.5. But over X rolls, the +1 weapon will be better. AP's become more "valuable" the more the PC's have at their disposal. It's a lot more qualitative than quantitative IMO.

 

[Andur]

Action points, fate points, luck points, etc...

First and foremost they should be able to do two significant things:

1) Help a character clean house, whether by auto-confirming a crit, reroll a d20, add dice to a d20 roll, or by "influencing" events to allow for a dramatic entrance/escape.

2) Save a character's ass, whether by auto-stable, negate an attack (5 AP's in our worlds), reduce wound severity, or by "influencing" events so that "back-up" or the retraction team gets there post haste.

I say character bacause the BBEG get the benefits too.

If a check becomes a +20 but you roll a 1, well that is not just a waste of an AP, it sucks. Same thing with critical hits, love GT, but we "modified" the rule to allow for AP expenditure for auto-confirm regardless of possibility. In short AP's are the lifeblood of a High Adventure, No Magic game, and should allow those who have them to do truly Heroic or Villianous Deeds.

p.s. Wulf y'all have anyone in tech support for your excel files?

 

[DonAdam]

But what I haven't really explored (but will!) is how those bonuses match up against magical bonuses. One could put a price tag on action points as if they were magic items, and I think this would be helpful to show how far they go towards filling that gap.

That is hot.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Didn't I do that for you? Oh wait, that's right - you didn't have the Excel Data Analysis toolpak. Did you ever end up getting it? I probably still have that file kicking around. I think I did an average of like 1000 iterations or something.

No, you didn't-- I just did the analysis myself, meaning Analysis analysis, not rolling 1000 times for an average.

The math isn't the difficulty, it's determining how valuable the finite amount of AP's is. For example, a single d6 AP is worth more than a +1 weapon for a single die roll because the average bonus gained from the d6 roll is 3.5. But over X rolls, the +1 weapon will be better. AP's become more "valuable" the more the PC's have at their disposal. It's a lot more qualitative than quantitative IMO.

It's not really that difficult-- an action point is simply a "charged" item. I just have to put a price tag on it, and I think there's enough info in the DMG to make an educated stab at it.

The hard part is the fact that not all Action Points are equal. A bonus to a saving throw is worth way more than healing after combat-- and on top of that, in my experience, PCs spend at least half their APs on saving throws. I should account for that, and a simple average of the value of each type of AP expenditure won't work. On the other hand, I don't have enough data to definitively say that 40% of all APs are spent on saves, 40% on attack rolls, 15% on Defense, and 5% on "all other;" I guess I'll just give the ranges.

p.s. Wulf y'all have anyone in tech support for your excel files?

Nope-- just me and some friendly ENworlders if I get in a pinch.


Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

All right, let's do this together.

Common Elements
Each of the following have this in common:

1) Analysis of d6 only-- average bonus of 3.5 (so, for reference, bonus^2 is 12.25).
2) No space limitation (doubles base cost).
3) Charged, 1 charge each (1/100th of base price).

Attack Roll
I believe the value of a bonus to an attack roll is (bonus2) x 300. Cost: (12.25)(300)(1/50) = 73.5

Skill Check
Bonus2 x 100. Cost: (12.25)(100)(1/50) = 24.5
Note: I believe this cost would also cover ability checks.
Note: I think perhaps, since APs are an unnamed stackable bonus, not a competence bonus, we'll double up the cost to 50.

Armor Class
Bonus2 x 2500. Cost: (12.25)(2500)(1/50) = 612.5

Saving Throw
Another unnamed bonus. Bonus2 x 2000 = (12.25)(2000)(1/50) = 490.

Emulate a Feat
This is extremely difficult to estimate, ranging from the lowly keen or mighty cleaving weapons to metamagic rods. Gloves of Arrow Snaring price out to 10,000 each. Same price for the Alertness ioun stone-- although since ioun stones take no space, they must think Alertness ain't worth much. I think 10,000 is good round number for a feat.
Cost: (10000)(1/50) = 200.

Confirm a Critical Hit
Another tough one-- can we just say this has the value of a 1-charge, no-space, use-activated True Strike?
Cost: (1)(1)(2000)(1/50) = 40.

Confirm a Critical Success with a Skill
Nothing really to go on here. I think it's worth about the same as a feat.
Cost: 200.

Healing After Combat
A potion of healing restores an average of 5.5 hit points, and costs 50 gp. An exploding d6 averages 3.79. And with RAW, you can only spend the action point for healing after combat. (In truth, I also allow players who are dropped to negative hit points to "react" by spending an action point in this way.)
Cost: 25.

Make a Heroic Strike
Spending an Action Point to bypass DR. I don't have Sword and Fist in front of me, but wasn't there a "sure striking" weapon bennie that allowed the weapon to strike all sorts of DR? I believe it was a paltry +1 equivalent. I'm open to suggestions on this one.

----

How's it all looking so far?

 

[BryonD]

Shouldn't Emulate a feat be cheaper? The magic items are always on, while the AP is one time only. There is certainly a significant value in being able to call out any feat you want. But I don't think that outweighs the one shot aspect. I'd call it half value or so.

On a tangent, what other cinematic things can players typically not do. For example, characters in movies are always getting beat up and then being back to full strength a minute later. I'd see that as spending an action point to immdiately heal all non-lethal damage. Perhaps permanently, or for a higher skull rating, just for an hour. Do a quick recovery and then get beat up over again and you're going to really hurt in an hour.

What else is cinema cliche that isn't in D20/GT?

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

What's the modifier for being a free action to activate?