Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-Underpowered

[Rystil Arden]

A dinosaur with a 13 Int?

Yikes!

-Hyp.

He was a unique half-fiend. He could have 13 Int if he wanted

 

[Merlion]

On the surface, your analysis seems fairly accurate. But, I think there is one area you missed. I think you were quick to judge offensive spells. Not only do Wizards typically have better single target offensive spells, but they tend to have more and better multi-target offensive spells verus single target offensive spells. This is the area where Wizards shine over Clerics. For example, the following tend to be some of the best offensive spells that Wizards and Clerics get at various levels:

At low levels, thats often somewhat true. Especially as far as damage. Colour Spray and Sleep are very nice, and Scorching Ray etc. And certainlly Wizards are better at area-effect damage.

Of course area effect damage is often a very poor strategy especially past very low levels.

Clerics also have some very nice, but often very underated spells at low levels tho. The get Hold Person before Wizards. Blindness/Deafness can be quite strong. Spiritual Weapon, especially since the Cleric can then attack right along side it, and even more so later when the Cleric can enhance his BAB and thereby that of the Spiritual Weapon. Searing Light is really not half bad.

And also remember that at low levels, the Clerics spells are not what they eventually will be, but he has the fallback of a d8 hit die, heavy armor, and medium BAB. And his saves are always litterally twice as good as a Wizards.

Most of the Clerical offensive spells are single target. Those that are multiple target tend to be less impressive than the Arcane multi-target spells of the same level.

Well their arent really that many multi target offensive spells in the game. As oposed to Area Effect offensive spells, which as I've said I dont think are all that great.



And, you havent talked about higher levels. Yea, from 1-6 the Cleric isnt neccesarily super powerful...although he still has what I consider an unbalanced spellcasting-to-other features ratio.

But past that it begins to change. at 7th level, your looking at Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Air Walk, Death Ward, Divination, Spell Immunity..then at 9th level we have Righteous Might, Flame Strike, Slay Living, Spell Resistance, Greater Command, True Seeing...

11th level doesnt bring quite as much but there is Harm which is very nice against high Fort Save enemies...plus the plot-breaking Find the Path, and Wind Walk for travel

then at 13th level we get Blasphemy and its siblings, and Destruction which is actually better than Finger of Death.

15th is a bit slow again, although Holy Aura etc are nice, and you get Fire Storm in case you do need some area effect damage...and its much more mutable than most AoEs

and at 17th we have of course Miracle, Energy Drain and Implosion.

And they have total access to all these spells, and every other spell on the list.


And throughtout this you have medium BAB, twice the HPs of a mage, probably right around the same AC as the Fighter, the games two most important saves as good catagories (plus your primary stat boosting Will even further), more spell slots per day than any class save the Sorcerer, turning/channeling and Domain abilities.


Now I admit the Wizard has a lot *more* offensive spells. But often times how many doesnt matter...if the right bases are hit, which they generally are with the Cleric.

A Wizard can take better defensive spells. Clerics tend to buff a little for everyone, Wizards just plain try to never get hit (e.g. Mirror Image, Invisibility, Fly, etc.). Even at first level, Mage Armor and Shield tends to be a higher AC than what a Cleric is using and at low level, parties tend to stop adventuring after 3 encounters anyway.

But Clerics ~have~ better defensive spells, especially against magic (which I find to be so odd). Wizards do have deccent physical defenses, spell wise, but Clerics have twice the HP and heavy armor. Plus Wizards do everything they can to simply stay out of range of physical attacks.

Against magic, Clerics have Spell Resistance, DW, FoM etc...and better saves..

Metamagic is not that helpful for Wizards. Having a few metamagic feats is fine, but a Wizard should typically not specialize in metamagic (Sorcerers should specialize in metamagic). Wizards would be better off taking item creation feats (especially Craft Wondrous Items) and boost their abilities that way.

Well, I think overall D&D metamagic is just kind of crappy. But Empower and Quicken are both useful, and quite useful for a Wizard. Yea you have to choose em before hand, but Empower is usualy nearly a no brainer...it enhances damage spells. Some Empowered Magic Missiles, and of course Empowered Fireball or Lightning Bolt is better than CoC at most levels..

And of course a Cleric, outside Core but still within WOTC stuff can use Divine Metamagic.

Wizards should use spells and items, not weapons. Them not having good weapon abilities is basically irrelevant

Yea, Wizards having no weapon proffs etc isnt really relevent to them, because they couldnt use them anyway.

But the Cleric has them, and can use them, and does and so it is another thing that that class has.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't know if your players hate to set up flanks, or you have crappy rogues, or you always fight undead, but occasioanlly get a +1 or +2d6. Huh!!!! The rogue can easily get it every round he hits, frequently multiple times in a round. And really the +1 to hit portion only helps when you miss but would of hit if you had rolled 1 higher. How often does that come up in a fight. The + to damage helps, but you need 3.5 hits by the party for every +1d6 of successful sneak attack.

And at 13th level a rogue can easily have 4 attacks per round at a reasonble to hit. Lets say a rogue with a 22 dex after mods(15 base 3 level booosts and a +4 item), two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fihgting weapon finesse short sword, weapon focis short sword. He gets +13/+13/+8/+8. Fantasitc no, but he's likely to get 2 sneak attacks off every round and can potentially get 4(or 0) at 2 per round he's doing an additional 49 points of damage a round, it going to take a lot of successful attacks(24.5 of them) at +2 to damage to equal that, though at a +2 to hit a little bit more often the + to hit makes a miss a hit and that helps.

Your maxed out Rogue here took 4 combat feats out of the 5 or 6 feats he has at 13th level. Not many feats left over to qualify for a Prestige Class.

You are assuming he hits with his +13/+13/+8/+8. Even with Flank at +2, 13th level opponents with ACs of 26, he will hit about 1/2 of the time with the first two and 1/4 of the time with the last two, or an average of 1.5 sneak attacks per round or 10D6+ extra damage or 37 points of damage more.

That's with an AC of 26 (relatively low for 13th level). How about an AC of 31 opponent? He is suddenly down to 0.5 sneak attack or an extra 12 points of damage on average.

How about the rounds where the Rogue does not get a full round attack because he has to move to a flanking position? How about the rounds where the Rogue cannot get a flanking position?


The Bard helping out a single full round attack 13th level Fighter (let alone the rest of the party) with his +2 to hit and +2 damage results in:

The Fighter is +13/+8/+3 BAB, +6 STR (22 Str same as 22 Dex Rogue), +4 item (same as Rogue), +1 Weapon Focus (average damage 16.5 for longsword and weapon specialization).

The Fighter is +24/+19/+14.

Instead of hitting 95% + 70% + 45% against AC 26 for an average damage of 35, he is now 95% + 80% + 55% against AC 26 for an average damage of 43. One PC out of the group averages 8 more points of damage on full round attacks.

Instead of hitting 70% + 45% + 20% against AC 31 for an average damage of 22, he is now 80% + 55% + 30% against AC 31 for an average damage of 31. One PC out of the group again averages 9 more points of damage on full round attacks, even though he is averaging less overall damage because he hits less often than against the AC 26 character.

The Rogue does a lot less damage against the higher AC opponent (25 points less). The Bard boosted Fighter does somewhat less (12 points less).

The Rogue did 12 more points of damage (due to Sneak Attack) on average against the high AC opponent whereas the Fighter did 9 more points of damage (due to Inspire Courage). Considering that Inspire Courage affects more than just the Fighter, this is not impressive.


Now, 8 or 9 points of damage for one other combatant type might not sound like a lot when the maxxed out Rogue might average an extra 37 points of damage. But, the Fighter is not the only one fighting. You might have 3 or 4 PCs in the group doing an extra 6 to 9 points of damage each. And because they get a bonus to hit, they also do this against both low and high AC opponents.

Also, this is additional damage beyond what those PCs would normally do. This does not take into account the touch spells that hit that would have missed. It does not take into account the times that the Fighter does a Cleave or Greater Cleave because those few extra points of damage on each attack allowed him to. It does not take into account the threats that became criticals.

It does not take into account that the Bard has not yet made an attack.

Suppose the Bard does a Dominate Person. His chance of success is probably on par with the Rogue getting multiple Sneak attacks in PLUS the Bard does not have to be in the midst of melee combat to accomplish this.


And, what about when they get to 14th level and the Bard's Inspire Courage goes up to +3/+3 (assuming the Bard does not go into a Prestige class)?


And with the 4 feats that the Rogue used to get his multiple attacks, the Bard has a lot of options. The Rogue is hard wired into two weapon fighting.

The Rogue is a one trick pony. Sure, he can do some serious damage under the right circumstances (low AC opponent, flank, opponent not immune to sneak attacks, full round attack, fighting two weapon). But, doing so, he is also a target. A target with low hit points, low AC, low Will saves, no way to flee, and no way (outside of potions/scrolls) to heal himself.


Even well played Rogues die in our games because they are wimpy defensively and offensively have one big attack that often isn't enough to save them.


Bards are not vastly better than Rogues (like a Cleric is), but they are slightly better because they are more flexible and versatile.


The problem is that people see the big Sneak Attack that succeeds every few rounds and they do not see the Inspire Courage, Cures, Summons, and Invisibility Spheres that keep the entire party alive. This is a game played with a group, not one or two individuals.

 

[Faradon]

On the surface, your analysis seems fairly accurate. But, I think there is one area you missed. I think you were quick to judge offensive spells. Not only do Wizards typically have better single target offensive spells, but they tend to have more and better multi-target offensive spells verus single target offensive spells. This is the area where Wizards shine over Clerics. For example, the following tend to be some of the best offensive spells that Wizards and Clerics get at various levels:

1 Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep VERSUS Cause Fear
2 Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Summon Swarm, Web VERSUS Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon, Hold Person (single target, save every round and Wizards get this at 3rd)
3 Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber, Sleet Storm VERSUS Searing Light, Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse
etc.

Most of the Clerical offensive spells are single target. Those that are multiple target tend to be less impressive than the Arcane multi-target spells of the same level.


I also think that there are more ways to improve a Wizard than a Cleric.

For example:

1) A Wizard can specialize. Especially at low to mid-levels, that one extra spell per day per spell level boosts a lot.

2) A Wizard can take better defensive spells. Clerics tend to buff a little for everyone, Wizards just plain try to never get hit (e.g. Mirror Image, Invisibility, Fly, etc.). Even at first level, Mage Armor and Shield tends to be a higher AC than what a Cleric is using and at low level, parties tend to stop adventuring after 3 encounters anyway.

I think some people who play Wizards sometimes do not take enough defensive spells.

3) Scribe Scroll is vastly underestimated. Most Wizards should walk around with a lot of scrolls.

4) Consider taking a Dwarven Wizard. +2 Con helps on hit points and Fort Saves, and Darkvision is indispensible for hanging back in the dark while the party fights.

5) There are only 3 stats needed for a Wizard in combat. Int, Dex, and Con. Clerics tend to need 4: Wis, Con, Str, and Cha (Dex tends to be less useful for them, if they are wearing armor).

6) Metamagic is not that helpful for Wizards. Having a few metamagic feats is fine, but a Wizard should typically not specialize in metamagic (Sorcerers should specialize in metamagic). Wizards would be better off taking item creation feats (especially Craft Wondrous Items) and boost their abilities that way.

7) Because of their scrolls, Wizards should consider keeping a few spell slots open every day for emergencies. This allows them to prepare for a specific situation. If you need to get through a locked door or chest, it often doesn't matter that you take out 15 minutes to prepare Knock. Don't use a scroll if you do not need to, but don't lock up all of your spell slots and then be forced to use up your scrolls either.

8) Wizards do not wear armor. This tends to be viewed as a weakness, but it in some ways it is a strength. Although Wizards do not take many skills that armor penalties affect, Clerics tend to take none. For example, my Wizards tend to take Tumble, even though it is cross classed. Wizards tend to have a better movement rate than Clerics. Wizards can carry more equipment for the same Strength score as a Cleric (assuming the Cleric has armor and/or a shield and/or more and heavier weapons).


With regard to weapons, I think your accessment is a bit unfair. Wizards shouldn't be using weapons except at low level where their chances to hit tend to be fairly close to that of Clerics, especially with ranged weapons.

Wizards should use spells and items, not weapons. Them not having good weapon abilities is basically irrelevant.

First to quote myself:

So, with everything else being as unequal as it is the wizard must have far more powerful spells right?

Well... not exactly... Now I'm not saying wizards don't have *some* spells that really are great... but on the whole... well.. let's compare a couple.

That being restated... so it doesn't get forgotten let's move on to what you had to say:
-----
1 Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep VERSUS Cause Fear (+ Command)
2 Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Summon Swarm, Web VERSUS Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon, Hold Person (single target, save every round and Wizards get this at 3rd)
3 Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber, Sleet Storm VERSUS Searing Light, Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse
etc.

Most of the Clerical offensive spells are single target. Those that are multiple target tend to be less impressive than the Arcane multi-target spells of the same level.

-----
I never said that every cleric spell was more offensive and superior to the wizard equivelant... what I said, was that of the 2 spell lists, I don't see such a clear imbalance of spell power that it justifies the rest of the differences between the 2 classes. 3rd level arcane spells have always been their strong point... but once you start getting into the 6th-9th lvl spells the Cleric spells really seem to shine even more. Add this on top of the fact that most of the Complete Divine, and other books have been adding more offensive clerical magics and it gets even worse. Being that advancement is sooooo fast in 3.x edition compared to previous editions of the game these higher level spells come into play a lot more often.

BTW yes, disintegrate is an incredible spell.. but so is heal / harm...
Both classes have great spells for different situations. Putting both classes into their "perfect" environment I think they both will shine... What I mean here is that putting a wizard into a battlefield environment to sling large area spells against units of closely packed enemies and putting a cleric into an undead infested dungeon to cleanse it of evil they should both excel, and every PC should be like "Awesome job, you kicked some serious butt!"

The problem is that when you put both of the classes into everyday adventuring situations (in tunnels, dungeons, the underdark, inside a building, in an area of low visibility, etc.) the variables change. Placing large AOE spells so they don't hit your friends becomes a little tougher. (also note we play where if your AOE spell effects a member of a melee combat, it also affects their opponent 50% of the time. This represents that miniatures are static and not moving where the combatants are actually circling, jabbing, etc. You can take a "precise spell" feat to negate that penalty.)

In any event, it's my opinion, like I said, that the differences between the 2 spell lists aren't substantial enough to warrant the rest of the differences between the 2 classes. Especially when a cleric starts taking War or Destruction as one of their domains.... now you've really thrown the balance for a loop when clerics can throw out a powerword stun, blind, kill, and disintegrate...

 

[KarinsDad]

At low levels, thats often somewhat true. Especially as far as damage. Colour Spray and Sleep are very nice, and Scorching Ray etc. And certainlly Wizards are better at area-effect damage.

Of course area effect damage is often a very poor strategy especially past very low levels.

Clerics also have some very nice, but often very underated spells at low levels tho. The get Hold Person before Wizards.

Hold Person is fairly weak since it gets a save every round and only affects humanoids. The Hold Person/Coup De Grace strategy is overrated, at least if you have allies to protect you.

Blindness/Deafness can be quite strong.

Again, if the save is failed, great. If the save is made, the Cleric wasted a spell and a round.

And again, it is single target. Compare it to Color Spray at low level.

Spiritual Weapon, especially since the Cleric can then attack right along side it, and even more so later when the Cleric can enhance his BAB and thereby that of the Spiritual Weapon.

Not shabby, but still a single attack per round (until higher level).

Melf's Acid Arrow is stronger on average.

Searing Light is really not half bad.

But not half good either. Scorching Ray is stronger and a level lower. The only advantage here is that Searing Light has medium range, but there are other better Long range and lower level spells like Melf's Acid Arrow.

And also remember that at low levels, the Clerics spells are not what they eventually will be, but he has the fallback of a d8 hit die, heavy armor, and medium BAB. And his saves are always litterally twice as good as a Wizards.

His Reflex saves are typically lower than a Wizard (or at least the high Dex Wizards I play).

And armor slows up the Cleric. BAB is at best ONE better at low levels (and if you play a high Dex Wizard using ranged weapons and spells, your to hit is actually better than most Clerics). That is not overwhelming.

Clerics have the better Fort and Will saves, but you are comparing what most people consider the BEST class (Cleric) here versus a good class (Wizard). Nobody has as good of Will saves as Clerics and Druids. But, Wizards are second tier (along with Bards, Sorcerers, Monks, and possibly Paladins) and everyone else is third tier.

Well their arent really that many multi target offensive spells in the game. As oposed to Area Effect offensive spells, which as I've said I dont think are all that great.

You do not consider all area effect spells multi-target if you target them correctly?

How about Acid Fog? Solid Fog? Web? Stinking Cloud? Cloudkill?

A Wizard will kill most groups of opponents with Acid (or Solid) Fog followed up by Evard's Black Tentacles.

Two spells. Ok, that's a wrap!!! Let's pack up the loot and go home.

And, you havent talked about higher levels. Yea, from 1-6 the Cleric isnt neccesarily super powerful...although he still has what I consider an unbalanced spellcasting-to-other features ratio.

But to get past 6th level, you have to survive.

Clerics are good at that with curing. Wizards are good at that by being super defensive and blowing away enemies.

But past that it begins to change. at 7th level, your looking at Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Air Walk, Death Ward, Divination, Spell Immunity..

At 7th level, the Wizard is casting Evard's Black Tentacles. Except for extremely large powerful creatures, that is a death sentence unless the enemy has spells.

Fire Shield often ensures that opponents fight somebody else and minimize grappling attempts.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability protects against the vast majority of the 7th level Cleric's spells.


We could go on and on. Both classes have strengths and weaknesses.


But, you have yet to illustrate that the single target Cleric spells come anywhere near the amount of devastation of the multi-target (i.e. area effect) spells of the Wizard.

then at 9th level we have Righteous Might, Flame Strike, Slay Living, Spell Resistance, Greater Command, True Seeing...

11th level doesnt bring quite as much but there is Harm which is very nice against high Fort Save enemies...plus the plot-breaking Find the Path, and Wind Walk for travel

then at 13th level we get Blasphemy and its siblings, and Destruction which is actually better than Finger of Death.

15th is a bit slow again, although Holy Aura etc are nice, and you get Fire Storm in case you do need some area effect damage...and its much more mutable than most AoEs

and at 17th we have of course Miracle, Energy Drain and Implosion.

And they have total access to all these spells, and every other spell on the list.

Solid Fog (4th) and Cloudkill (5th) cast consecutively can be more devastating than many of these.

Project Image (with or without Greater Invisibility) can be used to great effect. I hurt you, you do not hurt me.

Transmute Rock to Mud (5th) followed by (auto) Dispel Magic (3rd) is enemy ending. Your Cleric can be buffed up the butt, but even Freedom of Movement will not help much against this tactic unless the Cleric has a way to get out of the mud quickly. Hard to do that if he cannot fly or dimension door or climb due to armor check penalties on his cross class climbing skill.

I think you grossly underestimate what Wizards can accomplish, even with lower level spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

In any event, it's my opinion, like I said, that the differences between the 2 spell lists aren't substantial enough to warrant the rest of the differences between the 2 classes. Especially when a cleric starts taking War or Destruction as one of their domains.... now you've really thrown the balance for a loop when clerics can throw out a powerword stun, blind, kill, and disintegrate...

Hmmm.

The Wizard takes the Arcane Disciple feat and the Healing Domain and he can now heal himself and others.

You can minmax any character from any class and make them more powerful.


What does a Cleric really get over a Wizard?

Better Fort saves.

Better Will saves.

+1 BAB from levels 2 to 6 (after that, the BAB increase starts becoming irrelevant due to the number of spells available per day).

2 more hit points per level.

The ability to wear armor and hence better AC at some levels.

Buff spells.

Spontaneous Cures.


What does a Wizard really get over a Cleric?

Same or better Reflex saves.

Area effect spells, not just damaging ones, but entrapping ones as well.

Single character defensive spells.

Movement, both due to not wearing armor and due to better movement spells.

Scrolls, the Cleric has to use a feat to acquire scrolls.

Illusions, Clerics have virtually no illusions whereas that is one of the better ways for a Wizard to stay alive.


But, if Wizards were as weak as some people are implying, how come they do not die left and right in PC parties?

No doubt about it. Clerics are more powerful. I think they are the most powerful class in the game, even stronger than Druids. But, they are not overwhelming when it comes to magic. They can adversely affect others, but they tend not to. They tend to augment their allies.

 

[Merlion]

Hold Person is fairly weak since it gets a save every round and only affects humanoids. The Hold Person/Coup De Grace strategy is overrated, at least if you have allies to protect you.

Only effecting humanoids is a limitation, but remember a great many main villains in campaigns are likely to be humanoids with class levels. How much of a weakness that is will depend a lot on the game. Its generally not considered a weak spell, that I've ever seen even since it was lowered in power.

As for the coup de grace strategy...again it depends. Nothing is an absolute win, but its certainlly a factor.

Again, if the save is failed, great. If the save is made, the Cleric wasted a spell and a round.

You mean like half the spells in the game?

thats why you target weak saves.

And again, it is single target. Compare it to Color Spray at low level.

Colour Spray is area affect, not multi target...it isnt the same thing. And yea its a great spell at low levels. But Bness/Dness never really goes down in usefulness...and mostly I am just making the point that yes, low level wizard spells are generally better in combat than low level wizard spells...but even low level cleric spells are nothing to be sneezed at.

And armor slows up the Cleric

Yea. So? it also raises his AC, all the time. This is the tradeoff all armor wearers face, and its really not that much of a tradeoff anyway.

BAB is at best ONE better at low levels (and if you play a high Dex Wizard using ranged weapons and spells, your to hit is actually better than most Clerics). That is not overwhelming.

No, but it is better, and overall its much better. Medium BAB can actually hit, over the course of the game. Low BAB basically cant accept touch attacks.

Clerics have the better Fort and Will saves, but you are comparing what most people consider the BEST class (Cleric) here versus a good class (Wizard). Nobody has as good of Will saves as Clerics and Druids. But, Wizards are second tier (along with Bards, Sorcerers, Monks, and possibly Paladins) and everyone else is third tier.

LOL...thats exactly the point. Cleric is the BEST class. You've just admiteted/agreed with exactly what I am getting at: Clerics are more powerful than the other classes (somewhat along with Druid) then you have a second tier of more or less balanced classes...then theres everyone else.

You do not consider all area effect spells multi-target if you target them correctly?

They dont "target" at all. The *affect* and *area*. Everyone and everything in the area. No targetting of any kind.

Yea, you can get around that somewhat, but its still often a pain to try avoiding your allies. Plus, most of those spells are area effect damage spells, and at mid to high levels damage spells often become largely pointless.

Horrid Wilting, for instance, is a multi target spell. And one of the best in the Wizard arsenal.

A Wizard will kill most groups of opponents with Acid (or Solid) Fog followed up by Evard's Black Tentacles

Sure. Unless they have Freedom of Movement. Or unless your allies get in the way before you can. Or unless they have access to Dispel Magic.

Evards Black Tentacles is a great spell, just like Freedom of Movement is a great spell.

Clerics are good at that with curing. Wizards are good at that by being super defensive and blowing away enemies

Clerics are better at it than Wizards because they have twice the HP. And can wear armor (and still cast spells).

At 7th level, the Wizard is casting Evard's Black Tentacles. Except for extremely large powerful creatures, that is a death sentence unless the enemy has spells

Its a nice spell, but I really dont see how its a "death sentence" for the majority of enemies. Freedom of Movement, and items thereof is hardly uncommon. And there are plenty of physically large powerful creatures out there.

Plus, again, you have to avoid your allies. if the Fighter wants to go Fight, he's not really going to want to deal with your Tentacles as well as the enemy.


I dont really think Evard's Black Tentacles simply blows away all of a Clerics 4th level spells, especially considering the other advantages a 7th level Cleric has (twice the HP of the wizard, better AC, better attack bonus, better saves).

We could go on and on. Both classes have strengths and weaknesses

No. Wizards have strengths and weaknesses. Clerics...especially beyond the lowest levels..really just have varying degrees of strengths. And no real weaknesses...low reflex saves...woop dee doo they have the HP to manage, plus Resist/Pro Energy and Spell Resistance...

But, you have yet to illustrate that the single target Cleric spells come anywhere near the amount of devastation of the multi-target (i.e. area effect) spells of the Wizard.

I think your greatly overestimating the overall usefulness of area effect damage spells. At low levels they are good. At high levels they can be good against large numbers of comparitively weak enemies IF you as the wizard get to act before your parties meleers are already where you'd be casting the spell. But mostly at mid and high levels magical offense is about save or dies and disability spells. Slay Living, Destruction and Implosion in particular fill this out nicely for the Cleric.


Clerics arent about "devastation" of lots of damage and destruction. There about picking off the enemies that matter, and about being almost untouchable themselves.

Solid Fog (4th) and Cloudkill (5th) cast consecutively can be more devastating than many of these.

Can be, sure. Always are? I doubt it. I am not trying to say Clerics are vastly more powerful spellcasters. I am saying they are equally powerful spellcasters, in some different ways, and they then get a bunch of other class benefits, which makes them overpowered.

I think you grossly underestimate what Wizards can accomplish, even with lower level spells.

And I think your doing the same with the Cleric spells, and especially with the synergies of the spells with each other, and with the Clerics extreme inherent durability.

 

[Faradon]

Hmmm.

The Wizard takes the Arcane Disciple feat and the Healing Domain and he can now heal himself and others.

You can minmax any character from any class and make them more powerful.


What does a Cleric really get over a Wizard?
.

Better Fort saves. (check)
Better Will saves. (check)
+1 BAB from levels 2 to 6 (after that, the BAB increase starts becoming irrelevant due to the number of spells available per day). (unless you are trying to hit someone with touch and ranged touch based spells... making the cleric better at it)
2 more hit points per level.
The ability to wear armor and hence better AC at some levels.
Buff spells.
Spontaneous Cures. (which give more versatility to what you prepare ahead of time)
--- how about more spells per level (yes, even more than a specialist wizard at 11+)
--- how about domain powers/spells (without having to spend a feat like you described or having to sacrafice spell schools like a specialist)
--- turn undead, and the variety of substitution feats you can buy for it (since you brought up feats)
--- clerics don't have to buy/acquire spells
--- don't have to carry spellbooks (which can be taken / stolen)
--- don't have to spend a month of dowtime when they level up to scribe spells in a book when they finally get the money to buy some spells from a guild or whatnot
--- don't have half the spell component requirements that a wizard has (mostly just the holy symbol)


What does a Wizard really get over a Cleric?
Same or better Reflex saves. (solely based on what stats each character puts where)
Area effect spells, not just damaging ones, but entrapping ones as well. (agreed)
Single character defensive spells. (this goes for both)
Movement, both due to not wearing armor and due to better movement spells. (agreed)
Scrolls, the Cleric has to use a feat to acquire scrolls. (to acquire or create?... scrolls are cheap enough to usually buy from the church.. but that's not here nor there)
Illusions, Clerics have virtually no illusions whereas that is one of the better ways for a Wizard to stay alive. (if he doesn't lose the school from being a specialist to keep up with some extra spells like you suggested)
But, if Wizards were as weak as some people are implying, how come they do not die left and right in PC parties? (maybe your DM is lenient or fudges die rolls... but we roll out in the open, and especially at low levels, we have lost several arcane casters... more than any other class.. or maybe it's just a hex or bad luck for our casters)

No doubt about it. Clerics are more powerful. I think they are the most powerful class in the game, even stronger than Druids. But, they are not overwhelming when it comes to magic. They can adversely affect others, but they tend not to. They tend to augment their allies
(and again, never did I say the cleric spell list was overall *better* than the wizard one... I said that the wizard spell list "isn't better enough" to put him on par with the divine casters in terms of an overall class (druids too)

 

[Merlion]

+1 BAB from levels 2 to 6 (after that, the BAB increase starts becoming irrelevant due to the number of spells available per day).

Umm...since when is BAB ever irrelevent? if this is the case, why not just give everyone full BAB?

What does a Cleric really get over a Wizard?

all you mention is "buff spells". Cleric really dont get that many buffs other than their self only ones. But they do get the best magical defense spells in the game...Spell Resistance, DW, FoM

They also have better divinations. Mostly equal save or dies where it matters. Healing and restoration which wizards are barred from for some reason. Considerable (although inferior) mobility, and disability magic.

Movement, both due to not wearing armor and due to better movement spells.

I fail to see how this is terribly relevent to these kinds of character. So the fullplate wearing cleric has 10 feet less speed than the armorless wizard. So what?

The ability to wear armor and hence better AC at some levels.

I'm pretty sure its all levels..

Scrolls, the Cleric has to use a feat to acquire scrolls.

No, he has to use a feat to make them. He can still aqquire them. And I think this is more than balanced by a Clerics auto access to his whole spell list.

But, if Wizards were as weak as some people are implying, how come they do not die left and right in PC parties?

Wizards arent weak. They lack access to a few spells they should have, but as a class they are balanced. I just like to use Wizard as an example of why Clerics are overpowered. Wizards were the original full casters. They get 9 levels of powerful spells, and loose basically everything else in exchange. Clerics get 9 levels of equally but differently powerful spells...and still keep all the other stuff they have...HP, AC, BAB etc.

They can adversely affect others, but they tend not to. They tend to augment their allies.

I see it exactly the oposite. Clerics dont have that many enhancement spells for others, especially past low levels, aside from SR and the Immunity spells (DW, FoM). Generally a cleric is going to be more (probably too) useful using his magic offensively, either to buff himself into another fighter, or to kill off enemies directly.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yea. So? it also raises his AC, all the time. This is the tradeoff all armor wearers face, and its really not that much of a tradeoff anyway.

Armor is useless if you are not fighting.

First rule of Wizards: Don't fight

Second rule of Wizards: Never forget the first rule

Third rule of Wizards: Don't be seen so that you can apply the first rule

No, but it is better, and overall its much better. Medium BAB can actually hit, over the course of the game. Low BAB basically cant accept touch attacks.

+1 at levels 2 to 6, and +2 at levels 7 to 10 is not very relevant.

Wizards should rarely if ever fight. Period.

LOL...thats exactly the point. Cleric is the BEST class. You've just admiteted/agreed with exactly what I am getting at: Clerics are more powerful than the other classes (somewhat along with Druid) then you have a second tier of more or less balanced classes...then theres everyone else.

I agree.

Wizards, Druids, and Sorcerers are the second best classes. Everyone else is below them.

Clerics win over Druids, Wizards, and Sorcerers NOT because they can inflict more damage (they cannot), but because they can survive better.

Wizards and Sorcerers win the "inflict most damage" awards.

They dont "target" at all. The *affect* and *area*. Everyone and everything in the area. No targetting of any kind.

Yea, you can get around that somewhat, but its still often a pain to try avoiding your allies. Plus, most of those spells are area effect damage spells, and at mid to high levels damage spells often become largely pointless.

Horrid Wilting, for instance, is a multi target spell. And one of the best in the Wizard arsenal.

You should play the game smarter. Why risk your Fighters if the Wizard can area effect away most groups of enemies.

If your players are stupid and the Fighter types always rush out, of course the Wizard will be less effective.

But on teams that work like a team, Fighters and Wizards work together to allow the Wizard time to area effect opponents (Fighter can Ready or Delay you know).

Clerics are better at it than Wizards because they have twice the HP. And can wear armor (and still cast spells).

Clerics rarely have twice the hit points of Wizards.

Most (intelligent) players of Wizards bump up their CON and buy CON boosting items.

9th level Wizard with 14 CON averages 42 hit points.
9th level Cleric with 14 CON averages 62 hit points.

Closer to 50% more hit points and even less than that at higher CONs.

Even with a CON of 10, it is not quite 2 to 1 (24 to 44).

Its a nice spell, but I really dont see how its a "death sentence" for the majority of enemies. Freedom of Movement, and items thereof is hardly uncommon. And there are plenty of physically large powerful creatures out there.

At 7th level it is a death sentence for most enemies. Freedom of Movement also shows up at 7th level, but very few NPCs will have it and none of them will have the Ring.

Plus, again, you have to avoid your allies. if the Fighter wants to go Fight, he's not really going to want to deal with your Tentacles as well as the enemy.

Throw Evard's on your Fighter a few times and he'll get the message.

I dont really think Evard's Black Tentacles simply blows away all of a Clerics 4th level spells, especially considering the other advantages a 7th level Cleric has (twice the HP of the wizard, better AC, better attack bonus, better saves).

Again, not twice the hit points.

And, not necessarily a better AC. Only a better AC is the Wizard is not prepared for battle. Greater Mage Armor and Mirror Image and the Wizard is not exactly easy to hit.

No. Wizards have strengths and weaknesses. Clerics...especially beyond the lowest levels..really just have varying degrees of strengths. And no real weaknesses...low reflex saves...woop dee doo they have the HP to manage, plus Resist/Pro Energy and Spell Resistance...

Resist/Pro Energy are overrated.

Against a Red Dragon or Elemental when you know ahead of time you are going to fight him, sure.

Against an NPC arcane spell caster who is intelligent and will switch energy types every round, it is mostly a waste of a round (and, you tend to cast it AFTER he has already pegged you).

I think your greatly overestimating the overall usefulness of area effect damage spells. At low levels they are good. At high levels they can be good against large numbers of comparitively weak enemies IF you as the wizard get to act before your parties meleers are already where you'd be casting the spell. But mostly at mid and high levels magical offense is about save or dies and disability spells. Slay Living, Destruction and Implosion in particular fill this out nicely for the Cleric.

At high levels, the enemies should rarely even see a well designed Wizard (Invisibility). You cannot target someone you cannot see. By the time they get up their True Seeing (if they have it), the first spell against spell casting enemies is one which prevents them from targeting the Wizard (area effect cloud or fog spells). Fog Cloud or even Solid Fog does not really prevent your own Fighters from being effective.

Give your Fighter a Ring of Freedom of Movement and then cast all of the entangling area effect spells you want.

Why play stupid?

And I think your doing the same with the Cleric spells, and especially with the synergies of the spells with each other, and with the Clerics extreme inherent durability.

Clerics are durable. They are the most durable class in the game.

But, they are not spell casting powerhouses.