Which class will be the faveorite wrt multiclassing dips?

[Keenath]

I've been thinking about it, and the tier system makes it hard for multiclass, because a character with a different levels in 3 classes (i.e.: 6/3/1) won't be ready to go paragon as it has been hinted in R&C that it's only when you gain a level 11th or 21st in a class that you access the next tier.

EDIT: If you're 11th level in two classes will you be able to take 2 different paths? Or you'll be considered a 22nd level and be on your way to your destiny?

Eep! Nonono.

You gain a new tier when you are the appropriate character level.

But here's the neat thing that you have to get into your head... Forget PRCs. In 3.x, PRCs replace your first class. That's not how it works in 4e.

Paragon paths are abilities you get *in addition to* your class levels! If you want to take the Arcane Archer paragon path, you can come in from the Ranger side (archery) or from the Wizard side (magic). Either way, you continue to advance as a Ranger or as a Wizard (or any mix of the two, or even a new set of levels as a fighter -- so long as you meet the path's prereqs) and you ALSO gain paragon powers that reflect a mixing of archery with magic. I have no idea if it's even possible to NOT meet the prereqs for at least one path, or what happens if you manage to do that.

The epic tier does the same thing. You keep advancing as whatever class you like, though you've maxed out your paragon path, but then you get to add in an Epic Destiny. It might be the Archmage destiny, which makes you one of the most powerful casters on the planet, who will found magic schools and change the face of reality. It could be the Apotheosis destiny, which sets you on the path to godhood, to take a place in your deity's service. It could be the Eternal Champion destiny, which makes you a virtual immortal, with hundreds of past lives lending their experience to your hands. And so on.

But even as you're gaining Epic Destiny powers, you're also still advancing as a Wizard or a Ranger or a Paladin or whatever!

Edit: Just FYI, this all comes from the Paragon and Epic sections of R&C, I think.

 

[kennew142]

Having said that I just think there will only be class training feats previously, the well thought out arguments and examples of how multi-classing might work are making me now think- well maybe there will be both!

I think we'll see both in the new edition. I believe that the class training feats are designed to represent dabblers, while multiclassing is intended to represent a character with a broader base of powers and abilities.

 

[Voss]

Not at all. In 3e the problem is really bad. A level 9 fighter, level 1 wizard can only learn spells as a 1st level wizard.

Under the Bo9S system (and the one I think will be in 4e), then right off the bat your level of wizard makes you competitive since you are already a level 5 wizard.

Right. But unless things are dramatically different, this is ineffective. Further, you aren't necessarily getting all the abilities of a level 5 wizard. You're potentially only getting 1 ability that a level 5 wizard could have. Thats... less than good. It could be fairly decent IF everything scales with level and you add it to your 'per encounter' stack at a level when you can't get any more fighter 'per encounter' abilities, but thats about the only situation where it would really matter beyond flavor.

But you don't overshadow a single classed wizard. So a level 10/10 fighter wizard could have level 15 fighter and level 15 wizard abilities. This is good and keeps them competitive, and versatile but the edge is still with the single classed 20th level wizard or fighter for being the best in their chosen profession. With BAB, AC, Defenses, and feat progression all independent of class, I think this is a multi-class system that actually works across the board. Much better than 3e's system.

You're taking an awful lot of unseen material on faith. I'm not convinced that in attempt to not 'overshadow' a pure class, you aren't describing a situation where multiclassing is so weak as to be undesirable. We need more hard info.

 

[kennew142]

I'm hoping that powers picked up from [class] training feats operate at character level. Otherwise I have to agree with Voss that they would be too weak.

 

[MaelStorm]

Eep! Nonono.

You gain a new tier when you are the appropriate character level.

I have no problem understanding single classing and the tier level system. R&C is very clear.

But here's the neat thing that you have to get into your head... Forget PRCs. In 3.x, PRCs replace your first class. That's not how it works in 4e.

Paragon paths are abilities you get *in addition to* your class levels! If you want to take the Arcane Archer paragon path, you can come in from the Ranger side (archery) or from the Wizard side (magic). Either way, you continue to advance as a Ranger or as a Wizard (or any mix of the two, or even a new set of levels as a fighter -- so long as you meet the path's prereqs) and you ALSO gain paragon powers that reflect a mixing of archery with magic. I have no idea if it's even possible to NOT meet the prereqs for at least one path, or what happens if you manage to do that.

The epic tier does the same thing. You keep advancing as whatever class you like, though you've maxed out your paragon path, but then you get to add in an Epic Destiny. It might be the Archmage destiny, which makes you one of the most powerful casters on the planet, who will found magic schools and change the face of reality. It could be the Apotheosis destiny, which sets you on the path to godhood, to take a place in your deity's service. It could be the Eternal Champion destiny, which makes you a virtual immortal, with hundreds of past lives lending their experience to your hands. And so on.

But even as you're gaining Epic Destiny powers, you're also still advancing as a Wizard or a Ranger or a Paladin or whatever!

Edit: Just FYI, this all comes from the Paragon and Epic sections of R&C, I think.

I agree on this

But you are using only single class character in your example, you are not talking about the multiclass angle problem.

The idea of Dragonblade with the half level second class out of the Bo9S, is very interesting and answered my dilemma.

 

[Keenath]

But you are using only single class character in your example, you are not talking about the multiclass angle problem.

I'm saying that it doesn't matter what your classes are, whether you have one or three. The tiers depend on character level, not class level, and you get a paragon path when you get there -- again regardless of your specific class makeup.

The idea of Dragonblade with the half level second class out of the Bo9S, is very interesting and answered my dilemma.

That has to do with what class-related powers you're allowed to take at any given level, but doesn't speak to the paragon or epic tiers.

 

[hong]

IIRC there was a glitch with the Bo9S-style (and Iron Heroes-style) treatment of class levels for multiclassing, when you had 3 or more classes. Can't remember the exact details, though.

 

[MaelStorm]

I'm saying that it doesn't matter what your classes are, whether you have one or three. The tiers depend on character level, not class level, and you get a paragon path when you get there -- again regardless of your specific class makeup.

That has to do with what class-related powers you're allowed to take at any given level, but doesn't speak to the paragon or epic tiers.

Thanks for answering, it does make it clearer now.

EDIT: At least concerning the class/multiclass and the the tier level system.

 

[Betote]

I think 4E multiclassing will be completely through "class training" feats; that is, we won't have any fighter 4/wizard 3. The reason for this is simple: if 4E is bringing the role concept up and we've seen designers, developers and playtesters taalk about how well their characters fulfilled their role, having multiclassing a la 3.X would result in characters with non-focused roles: is a fighter/wizard a Defender or a Controller?

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

If you take the Class Training feat, it gives you the ability to learn powers from a second class...

According to R&C there's isn't just one class training feat for each class and they cover more than just powers:

Each class has a corresponding set of feats that allows other characters to pick up class abilities, skill training and even powers from another class. Have that idea for the martial wizard? Take the Fighter Training feats.

I agree with those people who think that these class training feats are going to be the entire 4e multiclassing rules. Once you get access to the class abilities, skill list and powers, what else is there in a 4e class? Hit Points? Perhaps hit points are considered a class ability.

Also, the one example of a multiclassed 4e character sounds like it's only using the class training feats.