Which class will be the faveorite wrt multiclassing dips?

[MaelStorm]

I've been thinking about it, and the tier system makes it hard for multiclass, because a character with a different levels in 3 classes (i.e.: 6/3/1) won't be ready to go paragon as it has been hinted in R&C that it's only when you gain a level 11th or 21st in a class that you access the next tier.

EDIT: If you're 11th level in two classes will you be able to take 2 different paths? Or you'll be considered a 22nd level and be on your way to your destiny?

And I'm for the arguments that 3E style multiclass is broken and as a lot of people pointed out is illogic.

So maybe that is why Mr. Cordell is saying multiclass will still exist but be better. That is the same thing as saying it will be changed and will have another form.

I guess I was wrong and there won't be any multiclass but only access to some training in more than one class.

And, yes, WotC we definitely need to know more info about multiclass in 4E.

 

[Dragonblade]

We already know that attack bonus, AC, saves, and feat progression are likely shared for every class. This was established in R&C.

Where each class differs is likely only in hitpoints, starting feats/powers, skills, and a one time class bonus to certain defenses/attacks (ala SW Saga although in saga its only defenses).

Taking a new level in another class will probably give you one of that classes starting feats/powers, the hp for that class for that level, and then the class bonus to defense/attacks (which will probably not stack with bonuses from previous classes, just overlap to avoid people taking class dips to boost their defenses/attacks). I'm not sure how skills will work.

Just like in Bo9S, half your levels in your other classes will likely determine what powers/feats you can qualify for in your new class. For example, a level 9 fighter, level 1 wizard can qualify for wizard spells as if they were a 5th level wizard.

Furthermore, there will probably be appropriate class training feats such as "Wizard Training" that simply give you a single spell/power from another classes power list. This will probably work identically to Martial Training from Bo9S.

So you could be a truly multi-classed character, and/or you can take the Training feat just because a certain spell or power from another class seemed really cool and you wanted to add it to your character. You could probably take it for your own class as well in order to add additional powers to your repertoire.

I'm 99% positive this is how it will work.

 

[Gundark]

I reckon multi classing is gone and you only have training feats...

This is my suspicion as well

 

[JohnSnow]

I had assumed that the wizard traininf feat would be required each time you wanted to dip into the wizard's talent/power selection. If it is a one time thing, it would seem to be very powerful for a feat.

As I said above, I imagine it would look something like the following (based on a slight rewrite of an actual feat* in one of the 3.5 supplements):

Wizard Training
By studying the basics of magic, you have mastered a magical spell. As a result, you gain the use of a wizard power.
Benefit: When you gain this feat, select a wizard power for which you meet the prerequisites. If you have wizard levels, you may add this power to your list of known powers. If you do not have wizard levels, you can use this power as a magical attack based on the ability designated for the power (usually intelligence).
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it after the first, you gain access to a new wizard power.


Obviously, this would require wizards to get a class-based bonus to their magical attacks so that they're strictly "better" at spellcasting than non-wizards. That's consistent with the theory that fighters will get a class-based bonus to their physical attacks.

But that's just me speculating again.

* This is based on the feat Martial Study from Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.

 

[Voss]

Just like in Bo9S, half your levels in your other classes will likely determine what powers/feats you can qualify for in your new class. For example, a level 9 fighter, level 1 wizard can qualify for wizard spells as if they were a 5th level wizard.

Furthermore, there will probably be appropriate class training feats such as "Wizard Training" that simply give you a single spell/power from another classes power list. This will probably work identically to Martial Training from Bo9S.

No. Or at least I hope not. This means you've jumped on the train of not-level-appropriate-forever. Which essentially means that any form of multiclassing or class training is utterly useless, because you'd be so far behind the power curve that it doesn't matter for anything other than a splash of flavor.

You wouldn't be a fighter/wizard, you'd be a fighter/apprentice wizard, and we'd be back in exactly the same place third edition is in, with useless multiclassing. The only difference would be that multiclassing would be useless for warriors too.

 

[The Little Raven]

Bill the Wizard or Ted the Warlock.

I'm just curious whether they're on an excellent adventure or a bogus journey...

 

[kennew142]

As I said above, I imagine it would look something like the following (based on a slight rewrite of an actual feat* in one of the 3.5 supplements):

Wizard Training
By studying the basics of magic, you have mastered a magical spell. As a result, you gain the use of a wizard power.
Benefit: When you gain this feat, select a wizard power for which you meet the prerequisites. If you have wizard levels, you may add this power to your list of known powers. If you do not have wizard levels, you can use this power as a magical attack based on the ability designated for the power (usually intelligence).
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it after the first, you gain access to a new wizard power.


Obviously, this would require wizards to get a class-based bonus to their magical attacks so that they're strictly "better" at spellcasting than non-wizards. That's consistent with the theory that fighters will get a class-based bonus to their physical attacks.

But that's just me speculating again.

* This is based on the feat Martial Study from Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.

I'm thinking this is probably pretty accurate. In fact, I would be a little surprised if this isn't how the feat will work. The only concern I have is that the wizard powers scale based on character level. If not, a character who takes this feat would fall pretty far behind the power curve.

 

[JohnSnow]

No. Or at least I hope not. This means you've jumped on the train of not-level-appropriate-forever. Which essentially means that any form of multiclassing or class training is utterly useless, because you'd be so far behind the power curve that it doesn't matter for anything other than a splash of flavor.

You wouldn't be a fighter/wizard, you'd be a fighter/apprentice wizard, and we'd be back in exactly the same place third edition is in, with useless multiclassing. The only difference would be that multiclassing would be useless for warriors too.

Well, we know that Paladin Smites are charisma-based attacks. One can assume, logically, that wizard "Spells" (at-will, per-encounter and per-day) are intelligence-based attacks. If, logically, the wizard's magical "attacks" use the same level-based bonus (+1 per 2 levels) as every other attack type, then any character who knows wizard powers can also make an int-based magical attack.

Logically, it would make sense for the wizard to get a class-based bonus to those attacks (+2, for example) just as it would make sense for a fighter to get a class-based bonus to his melee attacks.

So a 9th-level wizard might be able to cast 9th-level spells with a magical attack bonus of +10. By contrast, the 9th-level fighter who takes a wizard training feat might gain access to a 9th-level power that he can use with a magical attack bonus of only +6. While it's still useful, the wizard has a definite advantage. Where did I get those numbers?

Wizard:
+4 BAB (9th-level) +4 (18 INT) +2 (wizard class bonus) = +10

Fighter:
+4 BAB (9th-level) +2 (14 INT) = +6

And it's likely that the discrepancy would be even higher, due to possible feat bonuses, differences in ability scores, a more powerful implement, and so on. But both characters will have the same 9th-level power, which means it'll be equally effective assuming it succeeds. So the 9th-level wizard's fireball will probably do more damage (because it beats more people's REF defense) than the fireball cast by a fighter who's taken the wizard training feat.

This way, the fighter's power is far from "ineffective." But there's still definite benefits to being the wizard.

I'm thinking this is probably pretty accurate. In fact, I would be a little surprised if this isn't how the feat will work. The only concern I have is that the wizard powers scale based on character level. If not, a character who takes this feat would fall pretty far behind the power curve.

See above. I think the power will be restricted by character level. In other words, by taking the "Wizard Training" feat you'll be able to choose any wizard power with a level equal to your character level (or less). So a 9th-level fighter who takes wizard training can take any wizard power that's Level 9 or lower.

 

[Dragonblade]

No. Or at least I hope not. This means you've jumped on the train of not-level-appropriate-forever. Which essentially means that any form of multiclassing or class training is utterly useless, because you'd be so far behind the power curve that it doesn't matter for anything other than a splash of flavor.

You wouldn't be a fighter/wizard, you'd be a fighter/apprentice wizard, and we'd be back in exactly the same place third edition is in, with useless multiclassing. The only difference would be that multiclassing would be useless for warriors too.

Not at all. In 3e the problem is really bad. A level 9 fighter, level 1 wizard can only learn spells as a 1st level wizard.

Under the Bo9S system (and the one I think will be in 4e), then right off the bat your level of wizard makes you competitive since you are already a level 5 wizard. But you don't overshadow a single classed wizard. So a level 10/10 fighter wizard could have level 15 fighter and level 15 wizard abilities. This is good and keeps them competitive, and versatile but the edge is still with the single classed 20th level wizard or fighter for being the best in their chosen profession. With BAB, AC, Defenses, and feat progression all independent of class, I think this is a multi-class system that actually works across the board. Much better than 3e's system.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Wizard:
+4 BAB (9th-level) +4 (18 INT) +2 (wizard class bonus) = +10

Fighter:
+4 BAB (9th-level) +2 (14 INT) = +6

Which makes sense to me. But it means that any non-combat powers the wiz has are going to be just as effective as those used by a ftr etc.
However this is balanced by the fact that the ftr has to spend a feat (and thus reduce his options) to get it, which is fine IMO.

Having said that I just think there will only be class training feats previously, the well thought out arguments and examples of how multi-classing might work are making me now think- well maybe there will be both!

you could be right....C'mon WotC lets have a design article on this now- I wanna know!

But I'll stand by this to the end!