whirling rend and like powers

[tgwg]

well in this case it's not so certain. the main discrestion is that does whirling rend count as 2 damage rolls or 1. if it where 1 damage roll you're right the enhancement bonuses wouldn't stack, but if it's 2 then you would apply the enhancement bonus (among other things) on both of them.

It's harder to hit twice with whirling rend than it is with twin shot. I figure they come out about even.

except for the fact that 1 hit with whirling rend counts as 2 "hits" with twin strike. that and the fact that +attack to next attack roll is much more common than +attack to all attac rolls and you're now in a bind. if we look at it statistically with 15 being a hit then

whirling rend
75% to do full damage
25% do no damage

so 75% damage average

twin strike
56.25% do full damage
37.5% do half damage
6.25% do no damage

so again 75% damage average.

hm i guess you're right, they do average out, if they were using the same damage output, but if you look at the chart i made in the Giantitp forum you'll see that the barbarian while in rage is about equals to the ranger in total damage. It outstrips the ranger if whirling rend has 2 damage rolls.

and even if the damage output is equal don't forget that the tempust barbarian has more HP and AC then the two weapon ranger. so if the barbararians damage output equals the rangers, has beter defense then the ranger and fufills the same roll as the ranger (striker) then tempust barbarian >>> Two weapon ranger. this would make the tempust barbarian a gamebreaker to the 4e standards of balance.

If whirling rend counts as 1 damage roll it would be more balanced because it would only achieve ranger level damage while raging.

Remember you have to have a secondary target within range to hit.

that is true, and i'm having a hard time trying to figure out how that comes into the equation.

Twin shot has a 100% higher chance to crit as well since it's two attack rolls.

not as much as you think. While it is true that the ranger has another chance at criting it averages out that the ranger would crit 5.25 % more than the barbarian, if crits only happen at natural 20.

and then there's the whole deal that if whirling rend does count as 2 damage rolls then a magic item critical damage would apply to both the main weapon target and off hand weapon target.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I re-read the power and really it becomes quite clear: Whirling rend is two damage rolls.

From the end of the power: "If you are raging, add your Dexterity modifier to both damage rolls"

Since it's two damage rolls you add the relevant enhancement/feat bonus damage to each damage roll.

 

[tgwg]

hm you're right it does say that. then what's the balance situation between the tempest barbarian and the two weapon ranger.

if it truly is 2 damage rolls then the tempest barbarian is quickly aproaching gamebreaker territory simply by occupying the exact same nich as the Two weapon ranger and being decidely better.

beter damage, beter defense, beter hp, and virtualy the same play style.

P.S. perhaps that not quite right. the tempest barbarian likes to spread his damage around more, while the two weapon ranger has the choice to focus it on one opponent. how does this factor into the balancing equation? when i look at controllers everytime they hit a target they do decidely less damage then a striker, and only exceed the strikers total damage output when there's 3 or more enemies to smite. with the barbarian (2 rolls version) each individual damage roll does equal or more damage then each of the ranger's damage rolls.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Personally I think the two-weapon ranger/archer ranger and the whirling barbarian is very close in damage.

Level 8: Weapon focus + Armbands of +2 damage, +6 stat modifier, +2 enhancement
Ranger 1d10+5, 1d10+5, 1d8 quarry, two crit chances
Barbarian 1d10+11, 1d10+5, one crit chance

The barbarian has to be adjacent to two foes for him to get the extra damage, the ranger gets it every time. It's very likely the barbarian has to choose between getting combat advantage or a possible 1d10+5 extra damage.

I think it's a very good compromise, the average damage of the barbarian is higher in some circumstances and lower in other. In other words, it's a new schtick. Very good WoTC!

(The barbarian gets dex added to his damage when raging, but to start with a 20 in str, dex can't be higher than 15 if he wants a 13 in con, so it starts out at +2 and at level 8 it's +3, but at the same time, the ranger's crit-dice keep on increasing and quarry damage increases at level 11)

 

[tgwg]

Personally I think the two-weapon ranger/archer ranger and the whirling barbarian is very close in damage.

Level 8: Weapon focus + Armbands of +2 damage, +6 stat modifier, +2 enhancement
Ranger 1d10+5, 1d10+5, 1d8 quarry, two crit chances
Barbarian 1d10+11, 1d10+5, one crit chance

The barbarian has to be adjacent to two foes for him to get the extra damage, the ranger gets it every time. It's very likely the barbarian has to choose between getting combat advantage or a possible 1d10+5 extra damage.

i suppose you're right. the way you put it it seems that even with the "two rolls" rule they're both equal in damage with respect to their circumstances.

but there is one other matter to discuss. their respective defenses. the defensive differences between these two classes come from their base class and their primary and secondary attributes. The tempest barbarians attributes are STR and DEX; the two weapon ranger's attributes are STR and WIS.

(The barbarian gets dex added to his damage when raging, but to start with a 20 in str, dex can't be higher than 15 if he wants a 13 in con, so it starts out at +2 and at level 8 it's +3, but at the same time, the ranger's crit-dice keep on increasing and quarry damage increases at level 11)

actualy a tempest barbarian would do better with 18 in str and 18 in dex (half-orc). the reason why is that dex contributes to AC and REF.

if you compare the two weapon ranger's defenses to the barbarian's defenses... the results are less then favorable.

Barbarian (half orc)
STR 18
CON 10
DEX 18
INT 8
WIS 11
CHA 13

Ranger (longtooth shifter)
STR 18
CON 13
DEX 13
INT 8
WIS 18
CHA 10

while the barbarian's and rangers STR will be the same the barbarian has that +2 to FORT and the ranger has only +1 to FORT.

in terms of AC and REF the ranger is at even more of a disadvantage since his DEX is less important than his WIS the ranger will be forced to either split points between the two or focus on just 1. in this version the ranger has decide to ignore REF and AC which will (for the entirety of his carreer) trail behind the barbarian's AC and REF.

P.S. see below for when the ranger focuses on DEX

the only defense that the ranger has that is beter then the barbarians is WILL but since that came at the cost of 2 defenses (one of which is AC, the most common defence that is targeted in the game and is of extreme importance to melee characters) it is not a good tradeoff.

case where ranger focuses on dex

Ranger (half orc)
STR 18
CON 13
DEX 18
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 10

AC and REF; if the ranger instead focuses on Dex his AC will still be below the Barbarian's because of the barbarian Agility. His reflex will be equal to the barbarian's during heroic teir because the ranger has a natural +1 bonus to reflex, but will fall behind because barbarian agility increases at each teir. so (strangely enough) the barbarian has beter defense then a ranger in almost every case.

In the HP department the ranger has hp then the barbarian because the barbarian starts with 15+con score and gains 6 hp every level while the ranger starts with 12+con score and gains 5 hp every level. the barbarian could start with an 8 in con and still be able to take more damage than a ranger for the majority of their career.

so if the two rolls rule were adopted the barbarian would do about as much damage as the ranger (while not raging) but would have much beter defenses and hp.

if the one roll rule were adopted then the barbarian would do less damage than the ranger (and equal while under a rage) but would have much beter defenses and hp.

arbitrarily the one roll rule seems beter but you did make a good point about the power blackbrrd.

From the end of the power: "If you are raging, add your Dexterity modifier to both damage rolls"

there is no way i can argue with that.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Actually I don't agree with your reasoning, because whirling frenzy (encounter power) has main hand + off hand damage and it's quite clearly one roll.

But the two powers have completely different mechanics. In Whirling Rend the main-hand damage is dealt to one creature and the off-hand damage to another. You can't just add them into a single roll because neither die applies to both creatures.

 

[Blackbrrd]

But the two powers have completely different mechanics. In Whirling Rend the main-hand damage is dealt to one creature and the off-hand damage to another. You can't just add them into a single roll because neither die applies to both creatures.

That was the point I was trying to make - the ruling is different for the two powers.

Whirling rend: apply enhancement bonus to both damage rolls

Whirling frenzy: one damage roll (although with two different weapons), use the primary enhancement bonus only

 

[Blackbrrd]

i suppose you're right. the way you put it it seems that even with the "two rolls" rule they're both equal in damage with respect to their circumstances.

but there is one other matter to discuss. their respective defenses. the defensive differences between these two classes come from their base class and their primary and secondary attributes. The tempest barbarians attributes are STR and DEX; the two weapon ranger's attributes are STR and WIS.

Now then, I don't get the part where you put 18/18 in str/wis for a two-weapon ranger. He is probably much better of with a 20/15 split and go for scalemail.

When it comes to the bow-ranger he is better of with a 20/15 dex/wis split giving him better AC than the Barbarian, and AC is the most important defense? Oh, regarding that - I think it's something like this: AC 50%, Ref 20%, Fort 15%, Will 15%. In other words AC/Ref is the most important. The bow ranger comes out on top I believe.

When it comes to the barbarian, he is going to go for a 20/15 str/dex split or a 18/18 str/dex split. If he goes for the first his AC will be very bad. I think most players would go for 18/18 or maybe 19/17.

Anyway, as noted above it's easier for the Ranger, especially the bow-ranger to go for a 20 main stat, and really that makes the Ranger quite a bit more offensive. A 20 vs an 18 main stat is about a 5-15% difference in DPR.

Mostly I think we agree here, this is just nitpicking.

Hmm... I think I managed to misplace my point here. The Ranger is more precise, being able to deliver the damage where he wants. The Barbarian has to attack where he can get adjacent to two foes. This is especially true for the Bow-ranger which I personally think is more valuable than a dual-wield ranger.

When it comes down to utility-powers the Ranger wins when it comes to damage avoidance. He will probably just shift all over the place, and with the bow-ranger starting at range he is nearly impossible to pin down*.

*From experience as a DM. If my mobs went after the bow-ranger it is a waste of time 90% of the time. I need to get the Ranger dazed or immobilized to have any chance of taking him down before my mobs all die, having wasted lots of actions on the bow ranger. Hmm did I mention I think the bow-ranger is a VERY good build, not just for DPR, but for just being a pain and focus-firing all my mobs down?

 

[tgwg]

Now then, I don't get the part where you put 18/18 in str/wis for a two-weapon ranger.

that was to compare their defenses if they were both optimixed for defense.

Now then, I don't get the part where you put 18/18 in str/wis for a two-weapon ranger. He is probably much better of with a 20/15 split and go for scalemail.

you're probably right but even if that were the case the ranger's AC would still fall behind the barbarian's

17+ enhancement
vs.
13+ barbarain agility + dex + enhancement

When it comes to the barbarian, he is going to go for a 20/15 str/dex split or a 18/18 str/dex split. If he goes for the first his AC will be very bad. I think most players would go for 18/18 or maybe 19/17.

not that bad, just two points below but i agree that most tempest barbarians would go for the 18/18.

Anyway, as noted above it's easier for the Ranger, especially the bow-ranger to go for a 20 main stat, and really that makes the Ranger quite a bit more offensive. A 20 vs an 18 main stat is about a 5-15% difference in DPR.

actualy only the two weapon ranger's encounters or daily's will be affected from the str increase. for those who don't know twin strike doesn't at str. and the DPR increase would be 5-7% but mostly because of the increase in +attack. still nothing to sneaze at. however in order to increase this offensive power this much the two weapon ranger must sacrifice a large amount of defense which for melee characters especially is dangerous. (bow rangers are immune to this because they are getting a 20 in dex, are removed from the battle, and are awesome)

When it comes to the bow-ranger he is better of with a 20/15 dex/wis split giving him better AC than the Barbarian, and AC is the most important defense? Oh, regarding that - I think it's something like this: AC 50%, Ref 20%, Fort 15%, Will 15%. In other words AC/Ref is the most important. The bow ranger comes out on top I believe.

actualy because of the barbarian's agility increasing at each tier, a 18str/18dex barbarian would have the same AC and ref as a 20dex/15wish at heroic teir and more at paragon and epic if they both increase their dex every chance they got

*From experience as a DM. If my mobs went after the bow-ranger it is a waste of time 90% of the time. I need to get the Ranger dazed or immobilized to have any chance of taking him down before my mobs all die, having wasted lots of actions on the bow ranger. Hmm did I mention I think the bow-ranger is a VERY good build, not just for DPR, but for just being a pain and focus-firing all my mobs down?

we're getting off topic. the main comparison here is between the tempest barbarian and the two weapon ranger. the bow ranger's play style and stat division is much to different to be a fair comparison with the tempest barbarian or the two weapon ranger.

the point i'm trying to make is that under the "2 rolls" rule the comparison between the tempest barbarian and the two weapon ranger (and ONLY the two weapon ranger) is unfair to the two weapon ranger because the barbarian can do about as much damage but his much beter defenses give him more chance to do his damage without worrying about his life.

I feel that the tradeoff between offense and defense that would follow the "1 roll" ruling would be more balanced because the barbarian would trade offense for defense instead of keeping the same amount of offense and gaining greater defense

 

[tgwg]

and on to the crit question. under the "2 rolls" rule both the main hand and offhand would do their respective magic item's crit damage. therefore a crit with whirling rend would realy be 2 "crits." how the affected damage would play out if they are both using the same magic weapon would look like this

twin strike
0.25% chance of both critting
9.75% chance of 1 critting
89.75% chance of neither criting

increase in damage; 10.25% increase in damage

whirling rend
5% chance of both criting
95% chance of neither critting

increase in damage; 10% increase in damage

under the "1 rolls" rule only the main hand would get the crit damage since you are using your main weapon to deliver the attack.