whirling rend and like powers

[UngeheuerLich]

The TWF ranger is much more versatile...

the most probable half orc build would be

16/14/14/13/10/8

a 14 in wisdom is enough for a TWF ranger, 16 dex comes in handy for AC/ref and the occasional use of the bow

So you have 18/13/16/10/14/8 You can get chain (and scale) and be perfectly viable in melee and range (at least at the beginnning of your career)

Also Twin strike is the most versatile TWF power since you can focus one enemy or attack two enemies... since both attck rolls are simultaneous, you get any next attack has a +x bonus to both rolls...

If you are perfectly fine with your 14 wisdom, you can skip heavier armor proficiencies and stay with hide armor and just increase str and dex all the way... you will do well enough.

and whirling rend and whirling frenzy are indeed two complete different mechanics... as i see it the character builder is correct and if you don´t make it more complicated than it is, powers are quite easy to understand...

(do you add extra damage to both damage rolls: for weapon and for hunters quarry? i guess no... but if you count seperate dice as seperate rolls, you should consider doing it and now the ranger is once again far ahead in damage output)

 

[Blackbrrd]

Hmm...

Read up on the rules regarding damage etc, etc... I have decided I am unsure of how to handle this again. When you mentioned critical damage it sure made me think. It just doesn't add up completely for me.

I think the rules as written aren't clear on what damage Whirling Rend is supposed to do.

What I feel is the right way of thinking it is as follows:
Whirling rend has one attack you roll to-hit for. It gets maximized on a crit and you add the extra crit-damage. The second damage roll is the result of a auto-hit that's never mentioned and can never crit. A bit like the auto-damage from the level 5 fighter daily Rain of Steel.

Hmm... Looking at Rain of Steel, they could have made this relatively clear if they had just put the off-hand damage in the effect block. Oki, oki, it makes no sense.

Btw, the ranger comes out a bit better because if you crit on any of the two attacks you can choose to have your quarry damage on that hit, and maximized. That 4.5/9/13.5 average damage turns into 8, 16 or 24 damage.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

an extra 1W at the effect line would be a second roll so extra damage added... why not just interpreting in the most logical way?

one roll, if it is a crit, it is maxed... everything and extra critical damage for every weapon... it can be a lot of damage later, but why not... so you won´t dump your second weapon...

 

[tgwg]

The TWF ranger is much more versatile...

by "versatile" do you mean the fact that the ranger has the option of spreading out his damage or focusing it?

versatility vs beter defenses and hp?

it still doesn't seem like a fair trade

since both attck rolls are simultaneous, you get any next attack has a +x bonus to both rolls...

i think you're reading the rules wrong. Effects that add +attack to the next attack roll can only affect 1 attack roll so even if 2 attack rolls happen simultaneously you have to chose which one adds the +attack. or i could be mistaken, could we get a third vote here?

So you have 18/13/16/10/14/8 You can get chain (and scale) and be perfectly viable in melee and range (at least at the beginnning of your career)

viable isn't the same as superior. the ranger has to spend 2 feats on armor proficiency and still isn't near the barbarian's level of defense or hp for that matter

If you are perfectly fine with your 14 wisdom, you can skip heavier armor proficiencies and stay with hide armor and just increase str and dex all the way... you will do well enough.

again "well enough" vs superior. should i make a chart concerning their respective defenses?

(do you add extra damage to both damage rolls: for weapon and for hunters quarry? i guess no... but if you count seperate dice as seperate rolls, you should consider doing it and now the ranger is once again far ahead in damage output)

hunter's quary is not a separate damage roll. it is an "extra damage roll." it's added on to an existing damage roll so it doesn't get any modifiers unless a feat or ability overrides this rule. the reason why whirling rend is disputed is because it's ambiguous if the second "damage roll" is realy a damage roll or an effect that just uses the dice size of your offhand weapon.

Read up on the rules regarding damage etc, etc... I have decided I am unsure of how to handle this again. When you mentioned critical damage it sure made me think. It just doesn't add up completely for me.

have i made an error in my calculations or is there a particular part of my example that doesn't sense that i could possibly make clearer.

an extra 1W at the effect line would be a second roll so extra damage added... why not just interpreting in the most logical way?

one roll, if it is a crit, it is maxed... everything and extra critical damage for every weapon... it can be a lot of damage later, but why not... so you won´t dump your second weapon...

the "two rolls" rule does seem more logical and it actualy has backup according to the power itself. what i'm worried about is that, under this ruling, the tempest barbarian would be better then the two weapon ranger and upset the balance that I love about 4e. (that and break the game my friend is DMing)

i guess i'm just waiting for The Wizard's ruling on this. If The Wizard says it's 1 roll then it's 1 roll. If the Wizard says it's 2 rolls then i'll be an INCREADIBLY HAPPY MUNCHKIN.

There is a Huge way for this to be taken advantage of, much more then you may think.

p.s. what is the ruling behind Rain of steel. sorry i'm not familiar with that one. is enhancement bonus and or weapon focus added?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

versatility in using the same power on melee and range and fokussing on one target (a barbarian can´t do this) and spreading between two targets...

still a melee ranger is very viable and not underperforming compared to the barbarian although i agree that maybe barbarian agility should have been taken away from the whirling slayer build...

And i still believe you are thinking too hard about beeing a happy munchkin... you have answered your question yourself: its one damage roll, otherwise it would be too powerful... and actually it would make no sense to write the power in that way after recognizing that static bonuses x number of hits is an unfair advantage for classes that can hit the same foe many times...

if you don´t like the hunters quarry example: look at the seeker which does: 1W + 2d8 on some powers... I bet it wouldn´t come to somones mind that you add bonuses to the 1W part and to the 2d8 part of the damage roll... it just makes no sense...

@p.s.: of course

 

[tgwg]

and actually it would make no sense to write the power in that way after recognizing that static bonuses x number of hits is an unfair advantage for classes that can hit the same foe many times...

so... you're saying it's ok for the barbarian to add enhancement bonuses to both "damage rolls" because it can't focus them on one target

@p.s.: of course

then @ blackbrrd; of course rain of steel can't crit. the opponent is taking damage, you're not dealing damage. you can only crit when an attack deals da...*looks at whirling rend text* oh nevermind it looks like the "second damage roll" can't crit either. the opponent is taking damage. ha ha ha.

if this is the case then blackbrrd you're likely to be currect with this reading.

Whirling rend has one attack you roll to-hit for. It gets maximized on a crit and you add the extra crit-damage. The second damage roll is the result of a auto-hit that's never mentioned and can never crit. A bit like the auto-damage from the level 5 fighter daily Rain of Steel.

well that solves alot of questions.
1). it is 2 damage rolls
2). the second damage roll can't crit

now on to other questions. "does the second damage roll benifit from bonuses other than enhancement and feat bonuses" such as strenght from pain from player's handbook 2 or calculated assault from martial power?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

i still believe you are making it too complicated... i am out of this discussion...

and yes, the barbarian on rend has 2 attack rolls and on frenzy only one...

i have lost track when which power was referred... and to crits: i am not sure if secodary and effect damages are maximized, but i think there was a discussion if indirect damage of some warlock powers not related to the attack roll are maximized or not and i think the result was: yes... so at least the damage is maximized...

if you apply high crit is a difficult question: If you apply it, the scimitar is equal to an axe in average damage, if you don´t you look at longsword damage... since the proficient bonus is irrelevant for those powers, the ae is strictly better than the longsword... and the question is: do you want to have more viable weapons for the offhand, then you should just say it applies...

 

[Mengu]

This question has been around since PHB. Fiery Bolt anyone? It's also similar to the dilemma with what bonuses to add for Hellish Rebuke, Dire Radiance, and the like.

We've been playing it as you get all the bonuses you normally would for the secondary damage roll (enhancement, feat, etc). You do not get bonus damage that occurs only on a hit (for instance if you triggered Gauntlets of Ogre Power, you would only apply the extra damage against the target you hit). When you get a critical hit, only the target you hit gets the maximized damage and extra critical dice.

Now the powers that add main hand and off-hand [W]'s are a bit more confusing. Since the attack is made with the main hand weapon, I treat these as no different than if the power said 2[W] damage, except converting one of the [W]'s to the dice used for the off-hand weapon.

I will agree that to clear up the confusion, an update or FAQ would be nice.

 

[Blackbrrd]

This question has been around since PHB. Fiery Bolt anyone? It's also similar to the dilemma with what bonuses to add for Hellish Rebuke, Dire Radiance, and the like.

We've been playing it as you get all the bonuses you normally would for the secondary damage roll (enhancement, feat, etc). You do not get bonus damage that occurs only on a hit (for instance if you triggered Gauntlets of Ogre Power, you would only apply the extra damage against the target you hit). When you get a critical hit, only the target you hit gets the maximized damage and extra critical dice.

Now the powers that add main hand and off-hand [W]'s are a bit more confusing. Since the attack is made with the main hand weapon, I treat these as no different than if the power said 2[W] damage, except converting one of the [W]'s to the dice used for the off-hand weapon.

I will agree that to clear up the confusion, an update or FAQ would be nice.

This is how I am going to play it awaiting any clarification frmo a update/FAQ.

 

[DracoSuave]

This is how I am going to play it awaiting any clarification frmo a update/FAQ.

Well....

Let's see.

1) The only weapon used to attack is the primary one. The secondary weapon is only used to fill in the blanks for the second 2[W]. This is an exception, but otherwise, all parameters are filled by the first weapon. That includes enhancement bonuses, etc.

2) All bonuses to damage rolls applicable to this power apply to both types od damage rolls. Yes, they are damage rolls, you're picking up dice and rolling damage, and the off-hand weapon's damage is not additional damage.

3) As this is a melee power, you roll seperate damage for each enemy damaged by the secondary weapon.

Anything else?

Now the powers that add main hand and off-hand [W]'s are a bit more confusing. Since the attack is made with the main hand weapon, I treat these as no different than if the power said 2[W] damage, except converting one of the [W]'s to the dice used for the off-hand weapon.

Correct. This is no different than having a power that deals 1[W]+1d6+stuff damage. The second weapon's damage does not apply its enhancement bonuses nor its proficiency bonuses because a) named bonuses don't stack, and b) that weapon was not used to make the attack.