Whither thou goest, rogue?

[Andor]

My thought for the day:

The Rogue/Thief has always been the skillmonkey of D&D, supplemented by backstab/sneak attack.

In 1e he was really the only character who actually got skills (ignoring NWPs.)

In 3e he got the most skillpoints.

In 4e the skillmonkeyness was dialed back a bit, but he still had more than anyone else.

In 5e it seems like skills are being dialed back a bit. Stats are the primary driver, with skills being a minor modifier on top of the stat. A +1 or +2 on a stat of 13-18 is minor.

Scaling power are also being dialed down a bit too, so probably sneak attacking will not be as big a deal as it has been.

So what does that leave the rogue?

WRT skills I don't think it's a good idea to give them unique ones. Frex in 1e when only the thief had a "hide in shadows" skill it implied no one else could even attempt it. That was annoying and stupid.

What they might get is the ability to eliminate penalties. For example while the 'Spellcraft' skill might only be a +1 bonus to the skill check, it would make sense in some campaigns if every non-spellcaster got a -5 to the check. Likewise perhaps armour gives you a -AC bonus to sneak checks, but a thief can negate that.

Is that enough to make a class out of? I dunno. What design space does what we know of 5e leave for the Rogue?

Thoughts?

 

[Astrosicebear]

D&D Next seems to based more upon 'what i want my character to try' than 'what my character sheet says'.

If this is the case, skillmonkeys can benefit greatly by simply having the tools to try anything with more success.

And no love for the true skillmonkey, the Bard? The only difference between a rog and a bard is a rog uses his hands and a bard his mouth... hmm, lets not take that outa context.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I hadn't considered it, but you're right. The rogue as it exists in D&D is dependant on non-combat skills for his identity.

Maybe the rogue will wind up (like in 3E) being defined as mainly a lightly-armored backstabber. We can hope for a cleverer mechanic, though.

 

[Lord Zack]

I'd like for the rogue to get special abilities related to his forte rather than any great advantage in terms of the skill system. Every character should have to role to play outside of combat as well as within it.

 

[Guest 85555]

My guess is they get situational bonuses at each level that can be applied to attribute checks or skills (climb, detect traps, etc). I believe attribute checks are going to be part of core so that might work.

 

[john112364]

I would think that in keeping with the "rouges as skill monkeys" theme, the rouge will most likely get either bonuses to lots of skills or the ability to do some skills better than everyone else. For instance anyone can try to pick a lock but maybe a rogue can pick it faster and at one step easier. So any one can still make the attempt but the rouge will still be the go to guy.

 

[ExploderWizard]

A lot of the development of the thief/rogue character class I believe took place due to a lopsided view of the rules.

Thief abilities were unique to the class and this led to silly things such as no one else could try stealth or climb anything. Even though the rules for elves not in metal armor contradicted this, it became a rather common misunderstanding.

Anyone can attempt stealth, but a thief can move silently.

Anyone can climb a wall with the right gear but a thief can climb sheer surfaces.

A fighter could sneak around and scout but not as well as the thief. In combat, the thief could not perform as well as the fighter. If catching a foe unawares in certain circumstances a thief could possibly land a severe strike.

To this day I do not understand the thief= damage dealer concept.
I mean really, the whole "knowing where to strike" ability should be part of the fighters bag of tricks if anyone's if it going to be a sustainable all the time kind of ability.

If 5E is going to focus on all 3 facets of the game then I say its time for the thief to return as a master of exploration, especially if the assassin is included. The assassin is the sneaky guy that focuses on killing people-we don't need the thief to do that too.

 

[Belphanior]

Part of the entire reason "thief" got changed into "rogue" was to expand it beyond simply sneaking around and picking pockets. Although if assassin is going to part of the core classes from day 1, then I do expect them to dial this back a little.

Anyway, I'm not sure I can say about rogues in 5e. We don't really know how the skill system will work yet, so I'm not confident I can really speculate on what rogues will be like. I do think they'll make them really good at the exploration part of the game, possibly the best of all.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Traditionally the thief/rogue had lumpy damage. Whether backstabbing or sneak attack, they typically did more damage if they caught someone with their guard down, less on average otherwise.

They also should be good at getting a situation where they get someone's guard down (hence the stealth skills traditionally associated with the class).

I'd be happy to see them lose the 'trapfinder' aspect which was a niche protection that didn't do them any favours - "please can I have an ability that forces me to be the one that tackles dangerous traps on my own please?"

 

[RHGreen]

Hopefully rogues/thieves:

Sneaky slitting throats + shoving spears where they don't belong from under a bridge.
Daggers/Short swords/Rapier + Parrying Dagger - Dual weapon fighting.
Acrobatics (I'm Batman) - Running up walls Matrix style + swinging on chandeliers + ripping down a sail using his dagger + lassoing enemies from high up and leaving them hanging by the neck dead to freak out the others.
Crossbow - Lethal crossbow sniper. High damage, low speed - good for Surprise and 1st round.
Poisons/liquids and gases.

Greaseman/Conman/Technician/Escapologist - Charming/Forging/Disguising/Pickpocketing/Mechanics/Gambling.


There is so much to work with and I doubt I've touched everything. I'd say it should be the easiest to make stuff for.

As for Assassin - I think it should part of the Rogue options and not a single class. I mean anyone can be an assassin, no matter the class. It just depends on how you do the killing.

I like the idea of Assassin abilities being built up as a first strike damage boost based on things you have done in stalking your prey. For example: If you watch your target for a week to get his life pattern down you get a bonus (say +2d6 or based on how well you did the stalking) and you make a sedative (+2d6 for being helpless on how well you made the drug) and put it in his food (+1d6 because of how well you administered it in the food) etc.

So you build up all these assissination elements and sneak in and make an attack. Depending on how good a job you did of doing all these things your initial assassination attack could have a massive damage output capable of taking out the target in one hit. You get the idea anyway.