Why 4e doesn't bother me.

[Hussar]

This is something that kind of occured to me after responding to the thread Honestly, if WoTC didn't create it would 4e be D&D? Specifically, around page 14, we were talking about the Warlord flavour. I realized in that thread that flavourwise, I'd been playing warlords for years, since 1e in fact. The idea of a tactically minded expert appeals to me and it's a character type I've dabbled in more than a few times. So, having a class which actually speaks to that archetype obviously makes me happy.

Then I sat back and broadened my focus a bit and thought about the criticisms I'd seen of 4e and why most don't bother me. And, I came to realization that most of what 4e is doing is either stuff I hadn't thought of but maybe should have, or, more to the point, stuff I'd been doing for years anyway.

Take the "Minis Wargame" idea. Since 3e came out, we always used a battlemap. I used minis before that as well, so, it never even really registered that my game had significantly changed. In 3e era, I played almost exclusively online using a Virtual Tabletop, meaning I had a battlemap at my fingertips all the time. And we used it all the time. Even for non combat encounters I frequently used a battlemap to enhance the game. I had access to all the images on the Internet, why not use them after all? Expanding the things we can do on a battlemap is only going to make me happy.

As far as the whole daily/encounter/at will thing goes, well, I just look at my current campaign. We have 6 PC's, a Warblade, Swordsage, Binder (me), Knight, Artificer (Eberron campaign) and a cleric. The only holy bovine in our group is the cleric. Alignment is already halfway out the door because it's an Eberron campaign; my character has a mix of at will/encounter and daily powers; the Swordsage and Warblade are obvious prototype classes for 4e and the Knight covers Defender pretty well.

I could go on, but, I think I've made my point. At no time would anyone say that my current game is not 3e, and certainly no one would claim that it's not D&D, so looking at 4e, I can't think why anyone would try to claim that that's not D&D as well.

 

[Doug McCrae]

You're right, late 3e is very similar to 4e. My last two 3e PCs were a warblade and a warmage with a reserve feat from Complete Mage. (Sadly neither was a warforged, nor multiclassed with warlock.) We used Magic Item Compendium, MM4+5 and the Eberron setting so we were more than halfway there already.

The only big change for me will be the switch to the battlegrid. We didn't use it in 3e but the one 4e session I've run convinces me it will be necessary for most combat encounters. I have no problem with that, in fact I'm finding the new more movement oriented fighting style to be intriguing. It looks even richer and more tactically interesting than 3e.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It doesn't bother me because I always liked Rules Cyclopedia D&D, and the "back to basics" vibe of 4E combined with the re-doing of powers in the Bo9S mould was fine with me. I don't think it's part of the "AD&D" genealogy, personally; as I said in another thread, it's more like D&D from an alternate dimension where 3.XE didn't happen.

I don't agree that late 3E is "very" like 4E typically. Under certain situations, with certain classes, esp. w/heavy Bo9S classes, it could be be somewhat like it. It's a lot more like it than early or middle 3E, sure, but I still think the general feel is completely different, and there were insane PrCs and monster classes and so on coming out until the end. Saying more than "could be quite like 4E" seems pretty revisionist to me, though.

 

[MerricB]

I felt that late 2e (player's option) was getting very close to 3e.

And late 1E (Wilderness & Dungeoneer Survival Guides) was getting very close to 2e.

Cheers!

 

[Remathilis]

My group had picked up a number of 4e-isms (reserve feats, knight class, warlock, and house-ruled second wind. In Eberron. With AP!) so the mental jump from 3.5 to 4e isn't that large for me.

 

[Hussar]

It doesn't bother me because I always liked Rules Cyclopedia D&D, and the "back to basics" vibe of 4E combined with the re-doing of powers in the Bo9S mould was fine with me. I don't think it's part of the "AD&D" genealogy, personally; as I said in another thread, it's more like D&D from an alternate dimension where 3.XE didn't happen.

I don't agree that late 3E is "very" like 4E typically. Under certain situations, with certain classes, esp. w/heavy Bo9S classes, it could be be somewhat like it. It's a lot more like it than early or middle 3E, sure, but I still think the general feel is completely different, and there were insane PrCs and monster classes and so on coming out until the end. Saying more than "could be quite like 4E" seems pretty revisionist to me, though.

Please note I'm not trying to make a general statement, but a personal one. I'm not saying, empirically that late 3.5 is like 4e, I'm just saying that in my experience, I've found the jump to be more of a hop.

I do disagree with the revisionist aspect though. Late 3.5 saw testbed elements for 4e all over the place - Tome of Magic and Book of 9 Swords are obvious ones. But, as was mentioned, Reserve Feats and Action points are another.

Take races for example. I ran the World's Largest Dungeon for almost two years. In that time, I saw the following PC races: Assaatthi (from Scarred Lands - look a lot like Dragonborn to me), an orc, a goblin, a kobold, a pseudodragon, and a few others. Note, not at the same time, but, I did see them over the course of the campaign.

In the last campaign that I played in, I played a half-fire elemental (using rules from Dragon) priest of St. Cuthbert. So, obviously "out there" races aren't going to be a big shift in gears for me. Tiefling and Dragonborn in core? Why not? I frequently saw non-core races anyway, so, it's not a huge deal. The only gnome I saw in 8 years of 3.x was my own (Zil gnome Binder in Eberron). Dropping gnomes is no skin off my nose.

That's my point though. The jump from core 3.5 to 4.0 is a pretty long one. The jump from 3.5+late era supplements and splats? A small skip.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It doesn't bother me because I'm staying with 3.5, and ignoring 4E.

And i don't think late 3E is like 4E. It has some similarities, and ToB was obviously the bud from which the powers system sprang, but none of the ToB characters I've played felt anything like a 4E character, and in 3E, I found many times (especially as a Warblade), I was often better off doing a "normal" attack on some rounds, such as a charge or trips, disarms, etc... In 4E, there's almost never a reason to choose a "basic attack" over one of your at will powers, unless you purposely picked at wills that weren't very good for your character.

 

[Hussar]

Just to continue the thought on the small jump.

Throughout most of my 3e days, I played Scarred Lands. I like the setting. In SL, you have a setting where the gods and the titans battled it out for control of the world. The titans get banished and the world is damaged to the point where you have small pockets of civilization surrounded by very dangerous countryside.

Sound familiar? To me it sounds pretty much the same as the default 4e setting. People have pointed to Exalted and that's fair I suppose. To me, it's Scarred Lands with the added benefit of better mechanical design.

I mentioned Assaathi earlier. Here you have a reptilian warrior race whose empire fell ages ago. Reskin them to Dragonborn and you've got a reptilian warrior race whose empire fell ages ago.

Like I said, for me many of the 4e changes are things that I've been experiencing throughout 3e.

 

[fiddlerjones]

Speaking personally, my last 3.5e campaign was all but 4e. I had a warlock, a couple of custom-designed encounter powers for the fighter based off his legendary sword, and the druid had a reserve feat. My monster design had already converted over to 4e (including recharge powers), but this was heavily inspired by late 3.5 supplements like MMs 4 and 5. While not a general statement, I think this is one example that WotC had started us on proto-4e material long before the release.

(I even had a skill challenge in the last session)

 

[Farmer42]

Skill challenges have been in my games for a while. I started using them after I finished playing the first Tomb Raider for the 360. It just blew my mind the different ways the character got around traps and hazards, beyond just flipping a switch or removing a spring. I hadn't included them into social challenges, but that's a small step.