D&D 5E Why are 5E Giants Huge size?

[Upper_Krust]

Now I'm confused... are you advocating for making Fire Giants weaker?

Not necessarily. I think I've drifted into parallel topics though.

I'm no longer concerned that the switch to Huge size was necessarily a negative. Average Fire Giant height across all editions is 14 feet, so making them 18 feet doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. You can make an argument that perhaps the 5E giants are more 'traditional fantasy'; which is fair enough.

The secondary topic was if you make giants less frequent (campaigns will use less of a given monster the more powerful it is, that's a simple fact) then surely you should attempt to make them MORE interesting, rather than less interesting. However 5E giants are notably less interesting than their 4E counterparts both mechanically and thematically. Does that necessarily need to be addressed though, probably not. But food for thought (personally I don't like the 5E Monster Manual very much, its the weakest of the three core books IMO. ).

The tertiary topic is where we have ended up though. A dozen giants 'probably' beat any Party of Characters in Official D&D, even 20th level PCs with epic boons.

A Level 12 Party invading the halls of a Fire Giant Clan will likely be killed in any scenario where they have to face 5 fire giants at a time. More than that is virtually certain TPK. So in a residence of 105 fire giants you can't have those PC's fight the giants at more than 3-4 at a time (at best); which, call me crazy, sounds completely contrived. Once you alert that base they should be hitting you from all angles constantly. Your only hope is that they might stupidly take up residence in a structure too small for them to move between rooms.

What to take from this is that:
1. Giants in 5E are helluva tough.
2. PC's in 5E are no longer super-heroes at the highest levels.
3. An adventure where PCs take on Orcus in his backyard is a virtual impossibility in 5E. Unless you come up with THE most nonsensically contrived encounters even a team of Level 20 PCs with every epic boon in the DMG get REKT. Personally I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but it is an interesting dynamic shift from previous editions.

I don't believe level 12 pcs should be able to curbstomp a whole clan of Fire Giants!

No one can in (official) 5E. Even 10 fire giants will probably defeat a Level 20 party. So assuming 105 Fire Giants to a clan (approx. CR 47 collectively) that means you don't want to be alerting the base.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

A Level 12 Party invading the halls of a Fire Giant Clan will likely be killed in any scenario where they have to face 5 fire giants at a time. More than that is virtually certain TPK. So in a residence of 105 fire giants you can't have those PC's fight the giants at more than 3-4 at a time (at best); which, call me crazy, sounds completely contrived. Once you alert that base they should be hitting you from all angles constantly. Your only hope is that they might stupidly take up residence in a structure too small for them to move between rooms.

To be clear, you're not really supposed to run into the Fire Giant's lair making a ton of noise, you are supposed to try and sneakily stealth around from room to room and stop the giants from gathering reinforcement and warning each other. If the fire giants are given the chance to gather their forces, they will certainly kill the party of PCs.

What to take from this is that:
1. Giants in 5E are helluva tough.
2. PC's in 5E are no longer super-heroes at the highest levels.
3. An adventure where PCs take on Orcus in his backyard is a virtual impossibility in 5E. Unless you come up with THE most nonsensically contrived encounters even a team of Level 20 PCs with every epic boon in the DMG get REKT. Personally I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but it is an interesting dynamic shift from previous editions.

I largely don't agree with this. When you start getting into the higher levels, around 12, the CR system begins to break down. I know because I've run a game that ran from level 1 to 14, and by 14 you really need to start throwing some truly dangerous stuff to truly threaten players. Things listed as Hard in the CR system are actually Easy, and pretty much every fight they come across will need to be considered Deadly by the CR system (the designers probably know this too, as higher level adventures for 5E are not really balanced at all by the DMG CR system). It's even worse when you consider the magic items they may have, and by level 12 a party should have some pretty good ones (or the gold to buy them).

That said, giants are tough! It is of course dependent on the giant type (hill giants are pretty easy honestly), but Fire Giants are one of the toughest "generic" enemies in the game. By comparison, Githyanki Knights (I use githyanki as an example, as they are a popular humanoid combatant in high-level play) are CR 8, slightly lower than Fire Giants. They aren't really meant to be fought 10 at a time or anything like that.

 

[dave2008]

UK, nice to see you posting again - welcome back! I came to this a little late so I will just briefly touch on a few subjects:

Why are giants Huge size?

• As noted by others, the mechanics of size (grapple, etc.) make them feel more "giant"
• Longer reach (most Large creatures in 5e only have a 5 foot reach, giants have a 10' reach).
• They are closer to how they are typically depicted in art
• To differentiate them from smaller "giants:" ogres, trolls, etc.

Why are giants "boring?"

• As noted by others, many monsters in the 5e MM do not have a lot of interesting features. They are intended to be simple and die quickly. Heck I have a whole thread about making 5e monsters more interesting: 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium, and there are lot of giants there (mostly by @Demetrios1453)
• Later designs are more interesting, check out the Volo's Guide giants. I particularly like the Storm Giant Quintessent myself. (see below)
• Despite your thought of not being able to have a lot of giants. I disagree and think they are generally designed to be a higher level version of orcs. High level PCs can wade through quite a few CR 5 Hill giants. So, the basic giants in the MM are supposed to be simple to run without tricky mechanics that slow a DM down if there are 5-10 of them.

Storm Giant Quintessent

Spoiler

 

[pukunui]

Not sure if anyone knows where to find it, but James Wyatt certainly must have covered the Giants in his Wandering Monsters series during D&D Next, when they were testing the generic Bible for D&D 5E monster type by monster type.

I feel fairly certain he did. I recall there being some discussion early on about why they were making giants Huge. They wanted them to feel epic, like in that famous NC Wyeth painting:

Spoiler

 

[dave2008]

What to take from this is that:
1. Giants in 5E are helluva tough.

Not really. Obviously there a range of giants, but even my unoptimized group of lvl 15 players can finish off quite a few giants. I know some optimized groups on these forums can treat them a barely more than cannon fodder.

2. PC's in 5E are no longer super-heroes at the highest levels.

Obviously that is subjective, but high level 5e PCs are still very strong, hard to accidentally kill, and can do a ton of damage (like 200-300 DPR)

3. An adventure where PCs take on Orcus in his backyard is a virtual impossibility in 5E. Unless you come up with THE most nonsensically contrived encounters even a team of Level 20 PCs with every epic boon in the DMG get REKT. Personally I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but it is an interesting dynamic shift from previous editions.

Lvl 20 PCs (without boons) can easily take out Orcus in 1 round if they can get to it. Doesn't mean they will, but they can. Now getting to Orcus is another thing all together (and highly DM / adventure dependent).

 

[S'mon]

Something like Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits still works in 5e. You could run that with Epic Tier 17-20 PCs ok.
I don't think Throne of Bloodstone would work too well in 5e though; it'd need tuning down. Maybe with a level 20 party and a ton of Epic Boons.

Owning the 5e versions of G2 and G3 both in TFTYP and on Roll20, I do wonder how they're supposed to work in 5e. It does feel like the enemies aren't supposed to coordinate at all, and/or the PCs are super stealth ninjas, but then I wonder what they're supposed to be doing. Gygax I think expected the PCs to pretty much 'clear the dungeon' , which in other editions would be feasible for sufficiently high level PCs. If the 5e GM is supposed to have the giants lack all coordination and just sit in their rooms, that's not good. I remember the 1e version has a ton of advice on giant defence tactics, as befits organised lairs.

 

[pukunui]

The other problem with the TftYP version of the Against the Giants modules is that they didn’t increase the scale of the maps to account for the increased size of 5e giants, so in many cases, the giants have to squeeze to move around in their own lairs.

 

[Stormdale]

Not a fan of the 5e giant sizes, mine are large size and use the 1e heights- problem solved.

 

[Demetrios1453]

To keep the chronology straight remember that B/X (the picture and giant stats are from the Cook Expert set) came after 1e.

Also the size categories change across editions, 1e only had S, M, L, 0e and B/X did not have size categories. 4e only provides size category in the MMs without a feet description, and 5e has size categories for most monsters, but helpfully a size chart in feet for giants specifically. Some editions do size categories specifics differently too.

Hill giants
0e 12'
1e 10.5'
X 12'
2e 16' H
3.5 10.5 L
4e L
5e 16 H

Stone Giant
0e 15'
1e 12'
X 14'
2e 18' H
3.5 12' L
4e L
5e 18' H

Frost Giant
0e 18'
1e 15'
X 18'
2e 21' H
3.5 15' L
4e L
5e 21' H

Fire Giant
0e 12'
1e 12' L
X 16
2e 18' H
3.5 12' L
4e L
5e 18 H

Cloud Giant
0e 20'
1e 18' L
X 20'
2e 24' H
3.5 18' H
4e
5e 24' H

Storm Giant
0e (GH) 24'
1e 21' L
X 22'
2e 26' G
3.5 21' H
4e L
5e 26' H

Well, there's definitely a pattern there, as 5e basically copied 2e's heights, while 3.5 copied 1e's heights. 0e and X are sometimes the same, and sometimes different by a few feet. It's really strange, as if they've got the heights narrowed down to just a few options, but just can't decide which one is correct!

 

[Demetrios1453]

UK, nice to see you posting again - welcome back! I came to this a little late so I will just briefly touch on a few subjects:

Why are giants Huge size?

• As noted by others, the mechanics of size (grapple, etc.) make them feel more "giant"
• Longer reach (most Large creatures in 5e only have a 5 foot reach, giants have a 10' reach).
• They are closer to how they are typically depicted in art
• To differentiate them from smaller "giants:" ogres, trolls, etc.

Why are giants "boring?"

• As noted by others, many monsters in the 5e MM do not have a lot of interesting features. They are intended to be simple and die quickly. Heck I have a whole thread about making 5e monsters more interesting: 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium, and there are lot of giants there (mostly by @Demetrios1453)
• Later designs are more interesting, check out the Volo's Guide giants. I particularly like the Storm Giant Quintessent myself. (see below)
• Despite your thought of not being able to have a lot of giants. I disagree and think they are generally designed to be a higher level version of orcs. High level PCs can wade through quite a few CR 5 Hill giants. So, the basic giants in the MM are supposed to be simple to run without tricky mechanics that slow a DM down if there are 5-10 of them.

Storm Giant Quintessent

Spoiler

View attachment 136188

Thanks for the shout-out!

I really should get the giant paragons done, now that I think about it. I'll have to see if I can get my giant creativity going....