5E Why did they design Demiplane to suck?

Damon_Tor

Visitor
And yet for some reason many people think that the demiplane can't grow this way: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?657678-Demiplane-walls

I think the language is ambiguous: "When opened, the door leads to a demiplane that appears to be an empty room 30 feet in each dimension, made of wood or stone." Emphasis mine; the spell doesn't actually say what the demiplane is made of or even how big it is, only how it appears. That's a really weird way to phrase a spell.
Basically, it comes down to "It doesn't say you can, so you can't" which is some combination of "doing it wrong" and "no fun allowed"

Even if you can't expand the demiplane, a 30 foot cube is large enough to hold a 3-story house.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Basically, it comes down to "It doesn't say you can, so you can't" which is some combination of "doing it wrong" and "no fun allowed"

Even if you can't expand the demiplane, a 30 foot cube is large enough to hold a 3-story house.
I amend that to, "It doesn't say you can, so you can't unless the DM allows it."

Personally, I would allow further castings to increase the size, but at increased cost. The second casting to double the size to a 60 foot cube takes 5000 gold worth of diamonds. A third casting to make a 120 foot cube would take 10000 gold worth of diamonds. A fourth to double it again would take 20000 gold worth of diamonds. And so on. I would also allow different gems to have different effects. Instead of diamonds, 5000 worth of sapphires could add a water feature. 5000 worth of emeralds would add X number of trees and bushes. 5000 worth of white pearls would add clouds and wind.

This would allows the wizard to eventually at great cost, make a small personalized plane. It's another way to spend the money that many complain that 5e gives, but doesn't tell them how to spend. And they can eventually have something really cool. They could import insects of types they like, birds, deer, etc. The wizard could import workers to build a castle if he wanted.
 

Kurotowa

Adventurer
Personally, I would allow further castings to increase the size, but at increased cost. The second casting to double the size to a 60 foot cube takes 5000 gold worth of diamonds.
Math check. When you double all three dimensions of a cube the volume increases by x8. Even if you want to uncap the Demiplane size that's probably a bit much for a single additional casting.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
I guess I fail to see how a large demiplane could be a problem.

Suppose instead of a 30x30 room, it was "...a vast, featureless plane made of a stone-like substance that disappears if removed from the demiplane," how would players abuse that in a way that they couldn't with a 30x30 room?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Math check. When you double all three dimensions of a cube the volume increases by x8. Even if you want to uncap the Demiplane size that's probably a bit much for a single additional casting.
That doesn't bother me in the least. Most of that area is going to be up(air) or down(rock). So the creator can start making hills or maybe mountains after many castings and lots of money. Ultimately, it will just be a big private place instead of a small one, which is really cool.
 

dave2008

Legend
I guess I fail to see how a large demiplane could be a problem.

Suppose instead of a 30x30 room, it was "...a vast, featureless plane made of a stone-like substance that disappears if removed from the demiplane," how would players abuse that in a way that they couldn't with a 30x30 room?

You can store a lot more in a vast featureless plane than you can in a 30x30 room. Heck, you could transport an entire army with your vast plane. That seems like a big difference to me.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You can store a lot more in a vast featureless plane than you can in a 30x30 room. Heck, you could transport an entire army with your vast plane. That seems like a big difference to me.
It would take days to get an entire army through a door that is only open for an hour. Then more days to get them back out again. In the mean time, that first small portion of the army is in hostile territory. While you are dividing your army out into enemy territory over several days, you risk the loss of those portions. A large demiplane wouldn't be a grand instant army mover.
 

dave2008

Legend
It would take days to get an entire army through a door that is only open for an hour. Then more days to get them back out again. In the mean time, that first small portion of the army is in hostile territory. While you are dividing your army out into enemy territory over several days, you risk the loss of those portions. A large demiplane wouldn't be a grand instant army mover.
You can take as many days as you need to prep and you can get a significant number of people and equipment out of the demiplane in 1 hr. (approx. 4 miles of soldiers single file, which is roughly an army of 4,200 troops). That seems significantly more than the 36 soldiers in the RAW version. Now it would be less than 4000 with provisions and such depending on how organized/disorganized it is. But I image a well stocked force of 2000 or so soldiers could protect the wizard for a day until it is opened up to bring in another 2,000 or so.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You can take as many days as you need to prep and you can get a significant number of people and equipment out of the demiplane in 1 hr. (approx. 4 miles of soldiers single file, which is roughly an army of 4,200 troops). That seems significantly more than the 36 soldiers in the RAW version. Now it would be less than 4000 with provisions and such depending on how organized/disorganized it is. But I image a well stocked force of 2000 or so soldiers could protect the wizard for a day until it is opened up to bring in another 2,000 or so.
The thing is, if you are going to be close enough to strike something with surprise, you will be too close to rely on those 2000 men to protect you. Most places that you want to strike with an army, will have very sizable forces already there protecting it and those forces could make it out to overwhelm 2000, 4000 or even 6000 men, depending on how far away the invasion point is. If you are far enough away that an army won't be able to get to you in time to stop you from bringing over your army, then you are too far away to have surprise and they will be prepared for you.

It's certainly an advantage to be able to transport men that way, but it's not something overwhelming or broken.
 

dave2008

Legend
The thing is, if you are going to be close enough to strike something with surprise, you will be too close to rely on those 2000 men to protect you. Most places that you want to strike with an army, will have very sizable forces already there protecting it and those forces could make it out to overwhelm 2000, 4000 or even 6000 men, depending on how far away the invasion point is. If you are far enough away that an army won't be able to get to you in time to stop you from bringing over your army, then you are too far away to have surprise and they will be prepared for you.

It's certainly an advantage to be able to transport men that way, but it's not something overwhelming or broken.
Surprise is relative. IF an army of 2000 pops up next to (lets say a hours ride) a keep of a couple of hundred (at best), they are going to surprise that keep and overwhelm it keep pretty quickly. They can use that keep as base of operations moving forward. Have an army of 10,000 in a few days and overwhelm a kingdom not prepared for a large scale battle. I don't know about who you, but have an entire kingdom's army appear within your borders in 5 days when it would have taken weeks or months to get there normally seems like a big surprise.

I don't think the idea that demiplane creates a vast plane broken or overwhelming form a typically player perspective, but for me it is from a world building perspective. I also think such power should be reserved for the gods.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't think the idea that demiplane creates a vast plane broken or overwhelming form a typically player perspective, but for me it is from a world building perspective. I also think such power should be reserved for the gods.
I can respect this opinion.

For me, by the time a PC can cast 8th level spells, he's approaching the power of most minor gods. I don't have a problem with them making a sizable, yet still minuscule relative to real planes, demiplanes. Even at great expense, they still won't even come close to the size of the realms of gods on the outer planes.

Even with the doubling in size, 5k to double, 10k to double again, 20k to double a third time. By the time you reach 7 doublings, 1920 square feet, you'd have spent 635k gold, not including the extra costs I listed for modifying the plane to add plants, water, etc., and you'd still not have enough room to make a castle. Most of that area would be air and underground. If the party pooled resources, they MIGHT be able to get enough size to build a castle. Hardly large enough to rival the gods.
 
Combine it with mass suggestion though, and have fun.

Cast Demiplane on wall and open door... Cast Mass Suggestion on angry mob.
"Suggest to angry mob that they hide in here where it's safe, before this turns into an all-out bloody battle."
Close door, and go enjoy a nice pint at the bar.
You can't close the door, sadly. It's not concentration. The door lasts for 1 hour. Which was is an annoying thing about the spell. If you have lots of important goodies in it, you can't just cast the spell, grab what you need and leave for fear of someone slipping in and stealing something. (assuming you haven't lined it with glyphs and wards)

You can't trap anyone in it, unless you can convince them to stay there for an hour.

You can cast dispel magic on the door, though. So, shove them in and cast dispel magic.

You could build a pretty good prison: Cast a permanent teleportation circle inside a demi-plane. Then, use plane-shift on your enemies and send them to that specific circle, where they will be trapped in the demi-plane.


- Someone mentioned something about storing concentration spells? How do you do that? A room filled with buffs stored in glyphs?
 
You can't close the door, sadly. It's not concentration. The door lasts for 1 hour. Which was is an annoying thing about the spell. If you have lots of important goodies in it, you can't just cast the spell, grab what you need and leave for fear of someone slipping in and stealing something. (assuming you haven't lined it with glyphs and wards)

You can't trap anyone in it, unless you can convince them to stay there for an hour.

You can cast dispel magic on the door, though. So, shove them in and cast dispel magic.

You could build a pretty good prison: Cast a permanent teleportation circle inside a demi-plane. Then, use plane-shift on your enemies and send them to that specific circle, where they will be trapped in the demi-plane.


- Someone mentioned something about storing concentration spells? How do you do that? A room filled with buffs stored in glyphs?
Duration of demiplane < duration of mass suggestion
 

dave2008

Legend
I can respect this opinion.

For me, by the time a PC can cast 8th level spells, he's approaching the power of most minor gods. I don't have a problem with them making a sizable, yet still minuscule relative to real planes, demiplanes. Even at great expense, they still won't even come close to the size of the realms of gods on the outer planes.

Even with the doubling in size, 5k to double, 10k to double again, 20k to double a third time. By the time you reach 7 doublings, 1920 square feet, you'd have spent 635k gold, not including the extra costs I listed for modifying the plane to add plants, water, etc., and you'd still not have enough room to make a castle. Most of that area would be air and underground. If the party pooled resources, they MIGHT be able to get enough size to build a castle. Hardly large enough to rival the gods.
I think I misunderstood. If your are talking about making it bigger with an extra cost, I don't have an issue with that. I thought you were advocating simple make it nearly-infinite with any additional cost. The question is simple what it the extra cost. As far as I'm concerned that is a group/campaign specific option.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think I misunderstood. If your are talking about making it bigger with an extra cost, I don't have an issue with that. I thought you were advocating simple make it nearly-infinite with any additional cost. The question is simple what it the extra cost. As far as I'm concerned that is a group/campaign specific option.
Hah! No. I wasn't saying to make it bigger for free. I had suggested 5k in diamonds for the first doubling, then double the diamond cost for each additional doubling. I also suggested perhaps 5k in sapphires to add a water feature, and 5k in emeralds to add in some sort of plants and 5k in pearls to add in wind or clouds. You could bring in some wildlife you capture and with a whole lot of cost, make something truly grand as a getaway spot.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
What if the demiplane appeared as "...a vast featureless void, in which floats a 30-foot cube made of a stone-like substance. The door opens on the top face of the cube."

This gives you room to expand, if you are willing to undertake something of an engineering project.
 

Sword of Spirit

Adventurer
So, I looked up the spell again, and I realized it actually does kinda suck, in the way I care about, which is allowing a wizard to make a real demiplane. Here's an example of what I imagine when I think of a demiplane made by a high level wizard:

A large tower (or smallish castle) sits atop an earthburg floating in a stormy sky. If you travel more than a few hundred feet in any direction, you reappear out of the storm from the opposite side.

That's a wizard's demiplane. That's absolutely something you should be able to do. But even if you allow the demiplane spell to stack new 30' cubes each time*, and allow that to make open spaces, it would take a 20th level wizard with the Epic Boon that lets them have another 9th level spell slot casting demiplane 3 times a day every day for at least 10 years to get something of sufficient size.

I suppose that's not nothing, and it doesn't cost you any material components. But that itself is kinda silly. It should require material components. What I'd probably do for creating real demiplanes is treat it the same as crafting a legendary magic item. You need to adventure to acquire interesting exotic materials and expensive components and such, but then you get something awesome and worth it.

As it is, this spell should really just be renamed pocket dimension.



*And it seems kind of ridiculous that you can create a new demiplane with each casting a spell that requires no material cost, building up an endless supply of pocket dimensions, but can't combine them together into a single demiplane that isn't taking up all the cosmic addresses.
 

D1Tremere

Visitor
So, I looked up the spell again, and I realized it actually does kinda suck, in the way I care about, which is allowing a wizard to make a real demiplane. Here's an example of what I imagine when I think of a demiplane made by a high level wizard:

A large tower (or smallish castle) sits atop an earthburg floating in a stormy sky. If you travel more than a few hundred feet in any direction, you reappear out of the storm from the opposite side.

That's a wizard's demiplane. That's absolutely something you should be able to do. But even if you allow the demiplane spell to stack new 30' cubes each time*, and allow that to make open spaces, it would take a 20th level wizard with the Epic Boon that lets them have another 9th level spell slot casting demiplane 3 times a day every day for at least 10 years to get something of sufficient size.

I suppose that's not nothing, and it doesn't cost you any material components. But that itself is kinda silly. It should require material components. What I'd probably do for creating real demiplanes is treat it the same as crafting a legendary magic item. You need to adventure to acquire interesting exotic materials and expensive components and such, but then you get something awesome and worth it.

As it is, this spell should really just be renamed pocket dimension.



*And it seems kind of ridiculous that you can create a new demiplane with each casting a spell that requires no material cost, building up an endless supply of pocket dimensions, but can't combine them together into a single demiplane that isn't taking up all the cosmic addresses.
Wouldn't it be easier, and more in line with what you want, to use a completely different spell? This spell isn't about creating your own pocket world, it is about accessing storage. It works great for what it is. If you want to build your own extra-plane kingdom just use Plane shift, find a nice bit of nowhere in the astral plane, and use Mighty Fortress to establish your vacation keep. Throw in some plane shift runes and you can dial home any time.
 

Advertisement

Top