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5E Why did they design Demiplane to suck?

Coroc

Hero
It's a bit more than convenience; with a Glyph of Warding the spell ends if the glyph is moved more than 10' from where you place it, it is dispelled. So that means that while in principle you can use it to maintain multiple concentration effects (or just "pocket" a spell to cast later), that only works if you are going to be in the same location at the time you need to use the spell, which, since the Glyph takes an hour to create, is a pretty big restriction that will usually prevent you from using the trick in combat.

But with demiplane, you can use an action and an 8th level slot to get, say, a concentration-free Globe of Invulnerability and a concentration-free Haste, say, provided you had some downtime and 200gp beforehand, allowing you to still use your concentration on, say, Animate Objects; so you have big offense and big defense at the same time.

I mean, given even a single day of downtime, sufficient gold, and access to demiplane and plane shift, you could prepare for the BBEG battle by loading up your demiplane with, by my count, after factoring in the need for plane shift to get out, and the need to upcast glyph to match the spell level you're storing, six buffs (at 20th level) ranging from 3rd to 6th level spells. So you could stack, say, Globe of Invulnerability, two conjured elementals, greater invisibility, haste, and fly, all concentration-free, and all cast with a single action and 8th level slot on the day you trigger them, and still Wish yourself a Simulacrum and cast Animate Objects, all by round 3.
Sorry I do not get it why a spell requiring concentration (Haste , GoI) could be stored in a demiplane in a concentration-less form and retrieved from there at will?

Do you folks use a different set of rules than me? With haste it says nothing about not needing concentration anymore if cast at 8th level. Guards and wards needs an everyday casting for a year to become permanent (and I wonder if its effects are not dispelable still?) else it is 24 hours.
For the Glyphs, yes you could cast them on objects and get some explosion or other thing if you move those objects up to a maximum of 10' so this seems pretty impracticable, better cast some offensive spell with your 8th level slot so you stay out of melee.
 

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Olrox17

Hero
Sorry I do not get it why a spell requiring concentration (Haste , GoI) could be stored in a demiplane in a concentration-less form and retrieved from there at will?

Do you folks use a different set of rules than me? With haste it says nothing about not needing concentration anymore if cast at 8th level. Guards and wards needs an everyday casting for a year to become permanent (and I wonder if its effects are not dispelable still?) else it is 24 hours.
For the Glyphs, yes you could cast them on objects and get some explosion or other thing if you move those objects up to a maximum of 10' so this seems pretty impracticable, better cast some offensive spell with your 8th level slot so you stay out of melee.
Glyph of Warding has this option:

Spell Glyph: You can store a prepared spell of 3rd Level or lower in the glyph by casting it as part of creating the glyph. The spell must target a single creature or an area. The spell being stored has no immediate effect when cast in this way. When the glyph is triggered, the stored spell is cast. If the spell has a target, it Targets the creature that triggered the glyph. If the spell affects an area, the area is centered on that creature. If the spell summons Hostile creatures or creates harmful Objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and Attack it. If the spell requires Concentration, it lasts until the end of its full Duration.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th Level or higher, the damage of an explosive runes glyph increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd. If you create a spell glyph, you can store any spell of up to the same level as the slot you use for the glyph of warding.


Glyph of warding, however, does also say that "you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures", so I guess a DM could reasonably disallow the combo that the other poster was suggesting.
 
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Coroc

Hero
Glyph of Warding has this option:

Spell Glyph: You can store a prepared spell of 3rd Level or lower in the glyph by casting it as part of creating the glyph. The spell must target a single creature or an area. The spell being stored has no immediate effect when cast in this way. When the glyph is triggered, the stored spell is cast. If the spell has a target, it Targets the creature that triggered the glyph. If the spell affects an area, the area is centered on that creature. If the spell summons Hostile creatures or creates harmful Objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and Attack it. If the spell requires Concentration, it lasts until the end of its full Duration.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th Level or higher, the damage of an explosive runes glyph increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 3rd. If you create a spell glyph, you can store any spell of up to the same level as the slot you use for the glyph of warding.


Glyph of warding, however, does also say that "you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures", so I guess a DM could reasonably disallow the combo that the other poster was suggesting.
Ah, many thanks, now I get it. Now that is a real shenanigan, I would not allow to use glyphs for multiple buffs. Debuffs and other harmful spells, that is ok. Still, that rune, how does it know whom to target if triggered by moving it out of your demiplane? Will it not go off on the caster rather than the mob, since the caster moving the object with the glyph on it is closer?
And even more, would it not be more convenient to cast the debuffs and stuff as a direct spell out of possible melee distance?

I think there is some heavy misinterpretation of the RAW with various individual nuances going on in this thread.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
Ah, many thanks, now I get it. Now that is a real shenanigan, I would not allow to use glyphs for multiple buffs. Debuffs and other harmful spells, that is ok. Still, that rune, how does it know whom to target if triggered by moving it out of your demiplane? Will it not go off on the caster rather than the mob, since the caster moving the object with the glyph on it is closer?
And even more, would it not be more convenient to cast the debuffs and stuff as a direct spell out of possible melee distance?

I think there is some heavy misinterpretation of the RAW with various individual nuances going on in this thread.
I see no misinterpretation. The copy of the spell that I have starts out with "When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that affects other creatures..." If one wants to rule that the spell must affect targets other than the caster, rather then not going off on the caster immediately as soon as they complete the spell, there are still the other members of your party. You are free to disallow buffs through the use of Glyphs at your table; that may argueably even be RAI. But it is certainly not RAW. And of course, when one disallows the use of buffs through Glyphs, that certainly does but a crimp on using them with Demiplane.

Back to the original topic, I don't see the (probably) unintended "shenanigans" with Glyphs of Wardings as being a justification for this spell as written. They might as well have called it Mordenkainen's Broom Closet.
 

Olrox17

Hero
I see no misinterpretation. The copy of the spell that I have starts out with "When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that affects other creatures..." If one wants to rule that the spell must affect targets other than the caster, rather then not going off on the caster immediately as soon as they complete the spell, there are still the other members of your party. You are free to disallow buffs through the use of Glyphs at your table; that may argueably even be RAI. But it is certainly not RAW. And of course, when one disallows the use of buffs through Glyphs, that certainly does but a crimp on using them with Demiplane.

Back to the original topic, I don't see the (probably) unintended "shenanigans" with Glyphs of Wardings as being a justification for this spell as written. They might as well have called it Mordenkainen's Broom Closet.
My PHB copy clearly says "harms". Perhaps glyph of warding was errataed at some point.
 

MarkB

Legend
My PHB copy clearly says "harms". Perhaps glyph of warding was errataed at some point.
It was. Here are the notes from the PHB errata:

Glyph of Warding (p. 245). The first sentence clarifies that the magical effect needn’t be harmful. The final two sentences of the first paragraph now read as follows: “The glyph can cover an area no larger than 10 feet in diameter. If the surface or object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered.”​
 

I love it. If the spell is unsatisfactory for what you want, you can craft a spell for a level that you can cast. I concur that 7th seems reasonable or maybe craft an item that does what you want like Mordenkeinen's Closet Door.
 

Magefire342

First Post
Level 9 spells are the most powerful magic that could ever possibly exist. If there has ever been any spellcaster within the entire history of the setting who has done anything useful or interesting, then a level 9 spell should be able to facilitate that. Because if they can't, then it creates a situation where NPCs are better than PCs, just because they're NPCs. And that's not cool.
According to DND lore, magic once went beyond level 9 magic up to 12th level. The scale of the powers were intense, but there was only one level 12 spell ever created or cast. The power of the level 12 spell took hundreds of archmages, millions of gold, and sacraficed the life force of almost every single one of those hundreds of max level archmages as a ritual cast of all of their combined peak magics. That spell allowed the main caster to essentially switch sentience with a god and BECOME the god, which led to the destruction of magic itself, tore the fabric of reality apart, and resulted in both the caster and the god's death. A new god of magic was born to replace it and essentially rewrote the rules of magic to disallow anyone from casting anything over 9th level ever again. But as a TLDR, 9th level magic isn't even a grain of sand compared to the magical power that has been cast before.

MrRhexx has videos explaining magic above 9th level if anyone wanted to look into them, and I considered it quite interesting.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
In practice they should have called it Mordenkiens Walk In Closet.
That sounds about right, given that Mordenkeinen for some reason was made 5th Edition's whipping boy. Just look at Mordenkainen's Butter Knife or whatever that spell is called...
 

Saelorn

Hero
According to DND lore, magic once went beyond level 9 magic up to 12th level.
Is that a Forgotten Realms thing? It doesn't say anything like that in any of my books, so outside of any particular setting, that lore isn't any more canon than the alternative.

It sure is a way of knocking the PCs down a peg, after years of character investment, though.
 

Dausuul

Legend
According to DND lore, magic once went beyond level 9 magic up to 12th level. The scale of the powers were intense, but there was only one level 12 spell ever created or cast.
I have never heard of any such lore, and it conflicts with a lot of stuff I have seen, like the 3E Epic Handbook, which has rules for spells going up to 25th level.

Do you have a primary source for this? A book published by Wizards or TSR, with a page number?
 



I've heard the story about the 12th level magic before. It's Forgotten Realms history, which makes it a part of D&D multiverse lore.

But...

It seems to me that one can accept those events happened in the multiverse without accept the particular terminologies used. For instance, if you were playing 3e, you could just say that those 10th and 11th level spells were just Epic Spells that they had decided to classify according to the familiar spell levels, and the 12th level spell was a unique thing (as it was presented).

In 5e, there are multiple ways of dealing with it that don't rely on accepting that magic objectively went above 9th level. You could say that 10+ level spells are actually just variant ways of casting wish that produce specific (rather than open) results at the cost of the extra hoops you have to jump through. (In an extremely high magic society, they used language that codified these various results and such as different spells of higher levels, even though mechanically it was "cast wish plus do this stuff".) Or you could say they are all unique things rather than something that follows the standard spellcasting rules.

Although I find the contradictory lore in D&D irritating, there is usually enough of it that with most things you can multiple ways of interpreting the reality behind the lore.

One of my stand-by approaches to lore changes that I don't care for (like the way 5e presents the origins of the Yugoloths or MToF presents a lot of elven stuff) is, "some people on some worlds believe that".
 


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