D&D 5E Why do Sorcerers have so few spells compared to other full Casters

[Pickles III]

I like CON for sorcerers as magic is supposed to be fundamental to their being. It's probably too strong but then they feel a tad weak.

Bards not using CHA is just odd - Paladins should maybe have WIS for all their stuff. But we could do with another INT class (warlord?)

The problem they have is that wizards stole all their stuff. I guess they were introduced to get at least partially away from the much maligned Vancian casting. But now all casters can do what they used to & more so that is redundant.

I would like to see them do more of what they uniquely do, ie spell point stuff, rather than have more spells (though I have not suffered with actually playing one with a a limited selection). So I would be advocating more SP maybe 50% more - I do not think short rest refresh would be a good idea as that would be too many SPs.

Making the annoyingly poor metamagic better would also help - careful spell being completely overshadowed by evokers etc.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yes, I know people have gotten metamagic to work, but to me the overall feeling is miserly - like the designers were deathly afraid to make the Sorq strong...

More playtesting perhaps...?

 

[MoonSong]

I like the bard switching to int instead, because to me the lore aspect is the most important. His expertise and other abilities make him socially capable enough.
Int right now is best used as a dump stat if you want to be mechanically best...

Well, I like the 2e bard. I wouldn't care so much if they switched to int.

I like CON for sorcerers as magic is supposed to be fundamental to their being. It's probably too strong but then they feel a tad weak.

Bards not using CHA is just odd - Paladins should maybe have WIS for all their stuff. But we could do with another INT class (warlord?)

The problem they have is that wizards stole all their stuff. I guess they were introduced to get at least partially away from the much maligned Vancian casting. But now all casters can do what they used to & more so that is redundant.

I would like to see them do more of what they uniquely do, ie spell point stuff, rather than have more spells (though I have not suffered with actually playing one with a a limited selection). So I would be advocating more SP maybe 50% more - I do not think short rest refresh would be a good idea as that would be too many SPs.

Making the annoyingly poor metamagic better would also help - careful spell being completely overshadowed by evokers etc.

I get your point, and normally I would support something like that. But, it would make the class even more unrecognizable than it is now. Save for favored soul, all sorcerer origins are creepy or freaky on some way, making their spellcasting CON based would make the class even more monstruous in nature. (Sorcerers have always used Cha, swithcing to CON would take away even more utility, it wouldn't fix the class it would finish breaking it)

Spell selection limits greatly what you can do, in combat sorcerer could use some help to become the best blaster, but that isn't everybody's goal here. Even then, some high level reports summarize to "effective but very repetitive". Yet the problem I and others have is "I don't contribute much out of combat", making combat more interesting by buffing metamagic doesn't really solve this other issue. Increasing spell selection would go a long way to solve both.

 

[Pickles III]

That makes sense but to be devils advocate here what does the sorcerer lack out of combat that the fighter has?

I just tried to make a sorcerer & i now see just how limited spells are and that's when you are getting 2 per spell level. It seems you can pick a schtick or two then spam the crap out of it. Kinda like a fighter but not the flexibility usually associated with a full, caster.

(And warlock or mc sorcerer warlock does cantrip machine gunning better)

 

[famousringo]

I like CON for sorcerers as magic is supposed to be fundamental to their being. It's probably too strong but then they feel a tad weak.

Bards not using CHA is just odd - Paladins should maybe have WIS for all their stuff. But we could do with another INT class (warlord?)

The problem they have is that wizards stole all their stuff. I guess they were introduced to get at least partially away from the much maligned Vancian casting. But now all casters can do what they used to & more so that is redundant.

I would like to see them do more of what they uniquely do, ie spell point stuff, rather than have more spells (though I have not suffered with actually playing one with a a limited selection). So I would be advocating more SP maybe 50% more - I do not think short rest refresh would be a good idea as that would be too many SPs.

Making the annoyingly poor metamagic better would also help - careful spell being completely overshadowed by evokers etc.

Yeah, I think sufficiently buffed metamagic plus a couple of versatile spells unique to sorcerer (it really bugs me that sorcerer is the only caster without unique spells) would go a long way toward making the class more fun and distinct, while keeping limited SP and spell picks to balance the power.

As metamagic is now, everybody grabs the obvious power picks Twin and Quicken, then chooses two from Empowered, Subtle and Heightened. Extend, Distant and Careful are basically disregarded. When something doesn't sell, you lower the price, so I say give away the garbage metamagic for free. Sorcerers instantly become more flexible in those rare occasions when a spell just can't reach or a 20 minute buff might be nice. Power is constrained because a buff Extended is a buff that isn't Twinned, and it still costs that token SP.

I'd also like to see an element shifter metamagic ability. Pay an SP or two to convert one damage type to another. This lets a sorcerer get more mileage out of fewer blast spells by converting Fireballs into Acidballs, and again power is constrained because the sorcerer can have a Quickened Fireball or she can have an Acidball, but she can't make a Quickened Acidball. This would be a serious lifeline for dragon sorcerers who don't want to be red.

Basically, similar to how the wizard is a swiss army knife with a spell ready for whatever situation, the idea is that sorcerers should have enough metamagic to make their own spells relevant in whatever situation.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Would love to read your changes to the archetypes. Though I prefer a progression to 20 spells known versus bonus spells

Also, at first glance For Wild Sorcerer, I would have thought 3rd level Blink better than 2nd level Mirror Image in selection as Blink may or may not work each turn.

I posted the changes I would make, as well as my argument for the changes, in the Hombrew area.

 

[ScuroNotte]

I posted the changes I would make, as well as my argument for the changes, in the Hombrew area.

Thank you

 

[CapnZapp]

Yeah, I think sufficiently buffed metamagic plus a couple of versatile spells unique to sorcerer (it really bugs me that sorcerer is the only caster without unique spells)

There really needs to be a couple of specifically "wild" spells that cater to the image of the Wild Mage.

Not asking for many; as little as three would probably suffice (one level 1 spell, one level 3 spell, and one high-level spell would do it).

These spells should default to chaotic random results, but allow the wild mage to get better results (thanks to the subclass abilities).

At least the third level spell should be damage-dealing spell with an attack roll, rather than the target saving.

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As for the Draconic subclass, it's better off, so I really don't think it absolutely must have any unique spells. But since there are dragon spellcasting supplements for previous editions, it should be easy to find the same number of unique additions to that subclass.

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Note: I'm not even asking that these spells get added as bonus spells(although that would be nice, wouldn't it?).

Just having them on the spell list is the minimal nod I'm asking for.

(Meaning that all Wild Mages won't take all the "wild" spells, just like you don't have to take Confusion, arguably the "wildest" standard spell. For example)

 

[famousringo]

There really needs to be a couple of specifically "wild" spells that cater to the image of the Wild Mage.

Not asking for many; as little as three would probably suffice (one level 1 spell, one level 3 spell, and one high-level spell would do it).

These spells should default to chaotic random results, but allow the wild mage to get better results (thanks to the subclass abilities).

At least the third level spell should be damage-dealing spell with an attack roll, rather than the target saving.

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As for the Draconic subclass, it's better off, so I really don't think it absolutely must have any unique spells. But since there are dragon spellcasting supplements for previous editions, it should be easy to find the same number of unique additions to that subclass.

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Note: I'm not even asking that these spells get added as bonus spells(although that would be nice, wouldn't it?).

Just having them on the spell list is the minimal nod I'm asking for.

(Meaning that all Wild Mages won't take all the "wild" spells, just like you don't have to take Confusion, arguably the "wildest" standard spell. For example)

Indeed, just as Warlocks don't have to take Hunger of Hadar, and Rangers don't have to take Hunter's Mark. I mean, you're crazy if your cleric doesn't have Bless, but that's your prerogative to skip over a powerful, iconic spell for the class.

Some "wild" spells would be good, but I'm thinking of spells which are primal manifestations of raw magical power, so they'll be appropriate for all sorcerer subclasses. Spells the gods may have used in an age when magic was young and unrefined. Themes like radiance, force, and creation.

 

[MoonSong]

Indeed, just as Warlocks don't have to take Hunger of Hadar, and Rangers don't have to take Hunter's Mark. I mean, you're crazy if your cleric doesn't have Bless, but that's your prerogative to skip over a powerful, iconic spell for the class.

Some "wild" spells would be good, but I'm thinking of spells which are primal manifestations of raw magical power, so they'll be appropriate for all sorcerer subclasses. Spells the gods may have used in an age when magic was young and unrefined. Themes like radiance, force, and creation.

Personally I want more subtle and utility spells. Just because my magic doesn't come from a classroom it doesn't mean it is destructive and unrefined.