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D&D 5E Why do you use Floating ASI's (other than power gaming)? [+]

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
But... there's always next session? Or the ability of a DM to cut a combat short by having monsters flee, surrender, attempt to parlay, whatever. Am I missing something with your comment?

If the DM is having the monster flee because combats take up all the time in a session and leave little time to explore or talk,then the problem is that combats take up all the time in a session and leave little time to explore or talk. Ending combats early is not the answer, especially if done so unnaturaally.
 

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ad_hoc

(he/they)
Then it's even less likely that a 14 vs 16 will matter. Oh, that and many of my combats may last longer ... or maybe I just don't pay attention.

In any case, I think a 5% difference is so small it will rarely matter or be noticed. Other people disagree. Without a complex combat simulator that doesn't oversimplify things like spreadsheets tend to we'll never have a concrete answer, if that's even possible. Analysis is frequently way off base. Not that it's proof of much, I've been playing Solasta (D&D video game) that tells you statistics when you save a PC at the end of a module. According to a guide's spreadsheets, the paladin in awesome, the fighter is crap. My games? The two weapon champion fighter is second only to the wizard in overall damage and because they can second wind have just as much staying power as the paladin while doing 40% more damage.

In other words, I don't see a lot of value continuing the "I'm right you're wrong" when I don't buy the simplified analysis most people apply. Play a few hundred games with a variety of groups and track detailed statistics and we can discuss again. Until then? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. Either way I have a preference for balanced PCs most of the time. 🤷‍♂️

I'm totally with you for 14 vs 16. The actual gameplay ramifications are relatively minimal. And it's not like the character loses that +2 that goes into something else.

I was just clarifying how many rounds an average combat takes in 5e, or at least what the design intent is. It's good info to have so that a person can look at their own game and if it differs decide whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. A 5 round combat is going to change the balance not only of classes but of monsters too. Some will be stronger, some weaker.
 

ad_hoc

(he/they)
Hard disagree: no one thinks Gimli is an elf, or that all elves are like Gimli, or that if you play Gimli and call him an elf you're playing a perfectly normal elf.

The idea that the entire concept of an elf in popular imagination is "+2 dex" is just absurd to me.

Which is probably why I have never once seen anyone look at floating modifiers and suddenly decide that all lore, history, and common language no longer apply. Elves are still elves without +2 dex.

Give it a few years.

The base game works well. Races have a "type" that suggests classes they lean toward thematically. If a player chooses instead to play "off-type" by playing a different class they still have a good character, one which will have different strengths than if they were a standard race of that class.

With the Tasha's rules this is largely lost. Some races even suggest classes which are opposed to what their 'type' was as what race is 'optimal' for each class has now changed. Tasha's hasn't eliminated racial optimization per class just changed which ones are optimal.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Give it a few years.

The base game works well. Races have a "type" that suggests classes they lean toward thematically. If a player chooses instead to play "off-type" by playing a different class they still have a good character, one which will have different strengths than if they were a standard race of that class.

With the Tasha's rules this is largely lost. Some races even suggest classes which are opposed to what their 'type' was as what race is 'optimal' for each class has now changed. Tasha's hasn't eliminated racial optimization per class just changed which ones are optimal.

I think we need at least a default, perhaps even a minor penalty for using Tasha's options. Then again, I like playing against type which isn't really a thing any more if the option is in play.
 



If the DM is having the monster flee because combats take up all the time in a session and leave little time to explore or talk,then the problem is that combats take up all the time in a session and leave little time to explore or talk. Ending combats early is not the answer, especially if done so unnaturaally.
I guess one would wonder why combat is taking the whole session regularly. That doesn’t sound like a typical experience for a 5e game from both my personal experience and what I’ve read of the games of others on these boards.

Ending combats early is a possible solution. Not every fight needs to be nor should be a fight to the death.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I guess one would wonder why combat is taking the whole session regularly. That doesn’t sound like a typical experience for a 5e game from both my personal experience and what I’ve read of the games of others on these boards.

Ending combats early is a possible solution. Not every fight needs to be nor should be a fight to the death.

It's not typical because this is a problem for post level 10 play with multiple unoptimized nonpowergamed PCs. Most 5e groups don't play at level 10 or above. Groups break up before they run into the problem.

However if you actually do play that half of the game and don't run power gamed PCs, the combats are a slog.

It still counts as a game flaw as the designers designed those levels to be played even if few stay together long enough to do so.
 

Personally, I agree, but Wizards is actively stripping out those things, and making them more generic to the point where your race is a few special rules. Its being demonstrated over and over in the newer books and UA's.
Wizards doesn't own the idea of fantasy. Legolass will be the template for an elf no matter what the rules say.

Letting people play not-Legolass as an elf doesn't hurt that in any way, shape, or form. I'm not guessing either - I'm observing that despite the addition of more option for how to play your elf, people haven't completely forgotten what an elf is.
 

Wizards doesn't own the idea of fantasy. Legolass will be the template for an elf no matter what the rules say.

Letting people play not-Legolass as an elf doesn't hurt that in any way, shape, or form. I'm not guessing either - I'm observing that despite the addition of more option for how to play your elf, people haven't completely forgotten what an elf is.
Like he said, give it a few years. 2024 is going to be a very strange and interesting year...
 

Give it a few years.

The base game works well. Races have a "type" that suggests classes they lean toward thematically. If a player chooses instead to play "off-type" by playing a different class they still have a good character, one which will have different strengths than if they were a standard race of that class.

With the Tasha's rules this is largely lost. Some races even suggest classes which are opposed to what their 'type' was as what race is 'optimal' for each class has now changed. Tasha's hasn't eliminated racial optimization per class just changed which ones are optimal.
People have been writing in new kinds of elf for a lot more than a few years, but the basic tropes remain the same. Even if elven barbarians become common (like in Elfquest), they're still elven.

Do you really think one game adding more rules options is going to upend the entirety of fantasy fiction around the world in a few years? By doing the same thing they've been doing for almost 50?
 


Faolyn

Hero
I guess one would wonder why combat is taking the whole session regularly. That doesn’t sound like a typical experience for a 5e game from both my personal experience and what I’ve read of the games of others on these boards.

Ending combats early is a possible solution. Not every fight needs to be nor should be a fight to the death.
This depends entirely on how long a session is, of course. Playing online in this pandemic era, our sessions have been reduced to about two hours.

This session, the paladin managed to stop the combat through the art of persuasion once it had actually already begun, which was really awesome.
 



Faolyn

Hero
People have been writing in new kinds of elf for a lot more than a few years, but the basic tropes remain the same. Even if elven barbarians become common (like in Elfquest), they're still elven.
Elfquest came out in '78, meaning elf barbarians are almost as old as D&D itself.
 

Faolyn

Hero
It's the way they're doing it. They're purposefully removing differences between races.
Are elves still going to have trance and fey ancestry? Are dwarfs still going to have dwarven resilience and stonecunning? Are halflings still going be nimble and lucky?

If so, then all the important traits are still there.

As I said ages ago, once you add the bonus to your attribute, that bonus no longer matters. If you have an 18 Dex, it honestly doesn't matter if you got that through racial ASIs, level-based ASIs, or lucky rolls. It's just there. It's the traits that matter and that tell you what the race is actually like.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
They're flattening the mechanics. Races are a lot more than that, and that affects how people play.

I'll eat my words if in two years time you can't tell if someone's playing a dwarf at an average DnD table because they don't have +2 con and axe proficiency.
Dwarves using axes is silly anyway.

If the traditional culture is traditionalist grumpy miners and heavy infantry, they'd use warpicks.

2 handed pick, when?
 

If
Are elves still going to have trance and fey ancestry? Are dwarfs still going to have dwarven resilience and stonecunning? Are halflings still going be nimble and lucky?

If so, then all the important traits are still there.

As I said ages ago, once you add the bonus to your attribute, that bonus no longer matters. If you have an 18 Dex, it honestly doesn't matter if you got that through racial ASIs, level-based ASIs, or lucky rolls. It's just there. It's the traits that matter and that tell you what the race is actually like.
If there were more traits, I'd agree with you. Thank God for Level Up. Their heritages actually stand on their own. I can't convert O5e fast enough.
 


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