D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

Wait, maybe I'm not following here...I'm the DM the DC of a lock that is locking Vecna's Vault of Secrets is whatever I want it to be... or are you saying the rules should tell me what it is? Or are you speaking to examples... because I listed various places where 5e gives you examples of DC's...the average lock is a DC 15, you use that as a baseline and decide. We do seem to have different priorities... I am not looking to artificially make the lock difficult for the highest level PC... if he's good enough to pick what I set it at, based on the world I've built, then he does, and he deserves too...
I know that no level 5 PCs are getting to that lock, its a high level adventure. Of course its DC is going to be high, but if all the DC 'chart' in 5e tells me is that big DC numbers are harder than small numbers why bother? In 4e what 'hard DC' conveys to me is "the guy who wrote this wants it to be a tough DC for the characters", not "in the whole world, this lock is bad-assed" because I probably already know that. Certainly if its 4e and its a level 30 lock, I KNOW that.

So let's take a PC rogue at 12th level (because that's where most games end) with 18 Dex and Thieve's tools proficiency...and expertise +4 attribute/+8 proficiency(expertise)... now this is a thief at his practical peak in the world so +12 vs. DC 20... he can still fail roughly 35% of the time...IMO, for someone not looking for the hassle of consulting charts and looking up examples, that seems like a pretty good hard DC... that's about right for someone whose at their peak in the fantasy genre...If not what would you consider challenging? Of course if I want to get more granular and I am really pitting a 12th level Rogue against the god of secrets locks, I'm probably going to make it a nearly impossible task... DC 30
I'm simply contending that 4e's DC chart provides a more practically useful measure, than 5e's does.

How do you know you should use a level 30 difficulty lock? Eh, why would picking a lock require a SC??
I know to use a level 30 lock because its a level 30 adventure for level 30 adventurers! Slick, eh! ;) In fact I'd probably throw this at level 25 adventurers, because level+5 is really HARD stuff. TBH I'm not entirely sure why WotC chose to end the chart at level 30. The feeling may be that level 30 PCs should be getting a better break for thematic reasons, but you'd have to ask someone at WotC.

As for why make it an SC? Because its probably a climactic scene of the entire campaign for the party Rogue. Why chisel it down to a single die roll? Better yet, make it a team effort with the Rogue's contribution being central, but the Wizard, the Cleric, and the Fighter also getting to make checks.
Personally I wasn't fond of SC's so that was definitely not a loss for me personally... and I'm fine with using the DMG's loose guidelines for awarding experience for non-combat accomplishments... but hey apparently they worked for you so I can understand you missing them. Maybe the designers realized many people just didn't like SC's and that they were awkward to run in official games and insert into published adventures in a manner that didn't feel artificial to many.
I think there was a dearth of understanding of what the whole thing was aimed at and why it is a critical part of a story-oriented game. Too bad.

So the given advice is to scale difficulties... how does that not align with what I said?

And more support for exactly what I stated... the implicit or explicit default is geared towards scaling threats... while in a my games you don't suddenly only run into godlocks at a certain level... I actually tink bounded accuracy has helped me with this.

ALL of D&D is explicitly oriented towards scaling threats. It always has been. Except WEIRDLY you guys want the threats to scale, IF THEY'RE MONSTERS, but treat them in some totally non-orthogonal way if they're not monsters. Again, 4e adds expressive power to the system by creating a 'common language'. Level always represents scaling of things, and all things scale with level in the same way. Only in 4e can a level 10 trap replace a level 10 monster in an encounter 1:1 without altering the difficulty of the encounter. This is the power of common language.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Sounds like you need to stick with 4e then, because it sounds like it does exactly what you want. Don't feel bad, I felt the same way when 3e came out and I decided to keep playing AD&D. In both our cases, our disagreements with the newer edition come down to personal preferences of gaming style. lucky for us, there's ton of support and resources for us to keep playing the versions we like best.
 

I get that you think rulings over rules suck. I'm not questioning that. But it is objectively true that the more freedom you are given (less defined rules as how you MUST do something), the more options you have. This isn't a question about which is better, which you seem to keep trying to preach, because that's subjective. If given two choices:

1. If you want to do something, follow step 1, then step 2, then step 3
2. If you want to do something, figure out how you want to do it to your full imagination

#2 is always going to allow more options of improvisation. Whether you prefer it or not doesn't matter. The more rules you have limiting you, the more limited you are in options. THis isn't even up for debate.
While I do agree that's true in a technical sense, I think it ignores the psychological aspect for a broad spectrum of players. For many people, limitations can inspire creativity, and the "blank canvas" effect can be paralyzing. It's like arguing that a ream of blank paper has inherently more options than a coloring book. Sure, that's technically true, but it hardly negates the utility of the coloring book.
 

While I do agree that's true in a technical sense, I think it ignores the psychological aspect for a broad spectrum of players. For many people, limitations can inspire creativity, and the "blank canvas" effect can be paralyzing. It's like arguing that a ream of blank paper has inherently more options than a coloring book. Sure, that's technically true, but it hardly negates the utility of the coloring book.

I don't disagree. That's why I keep saying on a "what's better" context, neither is, because it's subjective. But from a literal context, one quite clearly has more options than the other, so it's odd that someone would argue the opposite.
 

I know that no level 5 PCs are getting to that lock, its a high level adventure. Of course its DC is going to be high, but if all the DC 'chart' in 5e tells me is that big DC numbers are harder than small numbers why bother? In 4e what 'hard DC' conveys to me is "the guy who wrote this wants it to be a tough DC for the characters", not "in the whole world, this lock is bad-assed" because I probably already know that. Certainly if its 4e and its a level 30 lock, I KNOW that.

So is this about your preference for a game that scales DC's with character level vs. one that doesn't? Because that's what your complaint above seems to indicate... 5e tells you what a Hard DC is... what it doesn't do is create DC's relative to the out of game construct of level. Now if you want level based DC's... again use the monster rules for save DC's for the various tiers of play.


I'm simply contending that 4e's DC chart provides a more practically useful measure, than 5e's does.

For your style of game... for my style, one of objective reality (which 5e's bounded accuracy works great for), 5e's DC charts provide a more practically useful measure...


I know to use a level 30 lock because its a level 30 adventure for level 30 adventurers! Slick, eh! ;) In fact I'd probably throw this at level 25 adventurers, because level+5 is really HARD stuff. TBH I'm not entirely sure why WotC chose to end the chart at level 30. The feeling may be that level 30 PCs should be getting a better break for thematic reasons, but you'd have to ask someone at WotC.

And I know to use a Hard difficulty because the lock on the town's vault is a hard challenge in my world... period. I have everything I need right there. I'll say this for the third or fourth time... this really feels like a play style thing not an objectively better thing...

As for why make it an SC? Because its probably a climactic scene of the entire campaign for the party Rogue. Why chisel it down to a single die roll? Better yet, make it a team effort with the Rogue's contribution being central, but the Wizard, the Cleric, and the Fighter also getting to make checks.

Opening a lock... seriously? how about infiltrating Vecna's vault and spiriting away his Book of Unknown Secrets out from under his nose? Now that's a SC... an entire SC for opening a lock is over kill... all IMO of course.

I think there was a dearth of understanding of what the whole thing was aimed at and why it is a critical part of a story-oriented game. Too bad.

I thnk it was kinda crappy when it was first released and never recovered with many from the bad rap it got... even after being revised multiple times.



ALL of D&D is explicitly oriented towards scaling threats. It always has been. Except WEIRDLY you guys want the threats to scale, IF THEY'RE MONSTERS, but treat them in some totally non-orthogonal way if they're not monsters. Again, 4e adds expressive power to the system by creating a 'common language'. Level always represents scaling of things, and all things scale with level in the same way. Only in 4e can a level 10 trap replace a level 10 monster in an encounter 1:1 without altering the difficulty of the encounter. This is the power of common language.

Hmm... my Far North sandbox doesn't scale monsters to the players... it allows them to decide what regions they enter and the region determines the monsters they encounter... which even then vary in their CR...
 
Last edited:

I get that you think rulings over rules suck. I'm not questioning that. But it is objectively true that the more freedom you are given (less defined rules as how you MUST do something), the more options you have. This isn't a question about which is better, which you seem to keep trying to preach, because that's subjective. If given two choices:

1. If you want to do something, follow step 1, then step 2, then step 3
2. If you want to do something, figure out how you want to do it to your full imagination

#2 is always going to allow more options of improvisation. Whether you prefer it or not doesn't matter. The more rules you have limiting you, the more limited you are in options. THis isn't even up for debate.
I'm sorry, but you have left reality behind when you start telling me what is 'objectively true' about games where the rules explicitly state you can do anything you want.

*Edit* Also, you might only stick to things written on your character sheet or in a book, but I'm here to tell you most other people don't. Especially in more rules-lite systems like B/X or 5e. The tagline for D&D for decades was "products of your Imagination", not "Products of what the rules say." To be honest, I can't even fathom playing an RPG where I was only allowed to perform actions that had a rule for them clearly written down. Screw that noise. Playing rpgs is pretend. Don't shackle my imagination please. Even if I fail, at least I had the option.
I have no idea where this came from. I want a game system to be able to largely cover the things that I am going to do. Why would I not want that!? I pay for exactly this in my rules. I hate to tell you this but I started DMing D&D games in 1975. I know ALL about what every version of D&D, and most of the other really popular RPGs have done and are about. Nothing is 'shackled' just because a way exists to represent it on paper. I mean you're subject to reductio ad absurdum here just for starters. If you want to free-form game, why buy an RPG? Going back to the example of my 'utility wizard' from 4e. ALL of the various things he was doing were supported by some sort of rule. He could make items, potions, alchemy, poisons, use rituals, and have a huge and varying spell book to pick from, ALL based on 4e RAW. In fact the game I played him in was an online game that had various rotating groups of players, it was explicitly using standard rules with no houserules or additions.

Now, I'm not saying that endless subsystems has to always add more value to every game. However, it worked quite well for 4e to have a structured set of rules that were carefully considered. The players/DM could then depart from that when they wished.

I don't think you read what I wrote. "Hard" means something in 5e too. Bounded accuracy is important, and you keep ignoring it. In 5e, a 15th level PC can't even succeed at a very hard (DC25) task they aren't proficient in unless they have a max ability score or some other outside influence. Whereas the same PC who is proficient in that task and also had a max ability score only needs a 15 or higher. 30% chance of success vs. 5%. That's a huge difference even with two PCs at the same level. I'm not sure how I can explain this. In 5e with bounded accuracy, you cannot assign a definition of what is easy/medium/hard by level of the PCs because two level 15 PCs can have a wildly different chance of success at a task depending on whether or not they are proficient in it.

So yeah, there is an absolute definition of what "hard' is. It's even right there in the book. In 5e, proficiency is the key, not level. With two equal level PCs, what's extremely hard for one is only moderately hard for another. That's why you can't have defined rules for what "hard" is that changes depending on what level the PCs are. The difficulty of the task stays the same, like hitting a target at 100m away. The most skilled someone is, it doesn't change the difficulty of the task overall, it just means they are better at it.

4e has AT LEAST as much, in fact considerably more, variation in skill bonuses than 5e does, so the same thing holds true. Yet we can still get a good idea of what is appropriate, and the Easy/Medium/Hard DCs scale in such a way that at all levels, accounting for character build practices, the Hard DC is hard to hit for any PC, the medium DC is moderately challenging for an average PC, and the easy DC is trivial unless you have very little talent.

Let me use this example. You've got 2 15th level PCs, both trying to do an Adele cover. The solo is very hard (DC 25). One is a musician proficient in singing, and has a high CHA to reflect that career path. The other is a pro basketball player who has his highest abilities in DEX, CON, and STR. No bonus in CHA at all, and not prof with singing.

It seems to me that your arguing that 4e is better because at 15th level, you'd know what DC to set as "hard" for PCs in general at that level. How would you do that here? The first PC has a +10 bonus overall, and the second has +0. How would you set a "hard" DC for 15th level PCs in this case? One will succeed half the time, and the other has no chance at all.

I don't know what the problem is. Of course one PC will find the task much easier than the other, you have set up the scenario so that this is the case. I would note two things about this. First that 'hard DC' in this case in 4e will mean moderately difficult for the high bonus PC and very difficult for the low bonus PC (probably impossible much beyond heroic tier as the gap increases with level).

The true answer though is again that this should be an SC. If its just some throw-away check for no real consequence then who cares? If its a significant part of the game, then it should be a series of checks and actions that tests the character in multiple ways and leads to some advancement in the plot. In such a case the level of the SC will be more likely to represent the difficulty of the challenge as you aren't tossing just one die, it will be an average of checks against various bonuses and tend to even out between the characters (assuming some sort of competition, TBH that part would never be structured this way in 4e anyway, but that's a whole other thing).
 

Sounds like you need to stick with 4e then, because it sounds like it does exactly what you want. Don't feel bad, I felt the same way when 3e came out and I decided to keep playing AD&D. In both our cases, our disagreements with the newer edition come down to personal preferences of gaming style. lucky for us, there's ton of support and resources for us to keep playing the versions we like best.

Maybe. I don't actually HATE 5e. I can live with a lot of it, but I like the tone of 4e a lot better myself, so yes, I will stick to playing it as much as possible, or at least playing games that take 4e's concepts as a starting point.
 

There's a bit of talking past each other going on here.

What 4e does well is it answers the question: what DC should this be if I want my characters to have, say, a 40% chance of success, or a 60% chance of success?. That is, it's relative to the party. That's why it scales - higher level party, higher DC's, to have the same chance of success. The DC might mean different things depending on the DM and the context (a 40% chance at level 1 might be a well-made lock, a 40% chance at level 30 might be the gates of the lock on some trapped god's cage)

One of the criticisms of that is the "treadmill" - higher level characters face higher DC's and so have the same chance of success regardless of level - the item changes, but it's only superficial.

5e's answer to that criticism is that it answers a slightly different question: how hard is this task for someone to do? That is, it's relative to the world. That's why it doesn't scale - the lock on an imprisoned god's cage isn't a lower DC because the party happens to get there at 5th level rather than at 30th. The level of the party doesn't matter, it's still a DC 25 (or whatever) task. Thus, a party that manages to get to the cage at level 3 is going to have a more difficult time unlocking it than the party that gets to the cage at level 20. It doesn't give you the chance of success at a particular level ("never tell me the odds!"), because it doesn't want to keep a tight lid on the different bonuses and options a character might bring to bear.

The big change is that the DM in 5e shouldn't worry much about what the party is capable of, they should worry about how difficult this thing is in the world. You can chuck a DC25 god-cage-lock at your 1st-level party. It's up to them to figure it out, or come back later, or pump up one person's ability check, or bypass by slipping the halfling in between the bars...

That's one of the ways that 5e encourages organic gameplay moments. Where 4e would tell you, "give your players a 60% chance to succeed on most checks, vary it by a little bit occasionally, and the game will keep ticking forward," 5e says "put it on the players, and let them explore their options - they may surprise you, or not, but it'll be up to them to figure it out, not you to hand it to them."
 

I'm sorry, but you have left reality behind when you start telling me what is 'objectively true' about games where the rules explicitly state you can do anything you want.

Oh, we've reached personal attacks now? Sorry to break it to you, but it's objectively true that the more limitations that one must follow, the less variation in results you will have.

I have no idea where this came from. .

From your statement that you don't feel like you can do anything unless you know the rule for it.

As for the rest of your comments, if you're gonna attack me personally, then there's no reason to continue this any further.
 

So is this about your preference for a game that scales DC's with character level vs. one that doesn't? Because that's what your complaint above seems to indicate... 5e tells you what a Hard DC is... what it doesn't do is create DC's relative to the out of game construct of level. Now if you want level based DC's... again use the monster rules for save DC's for the various tiers of play.

For your style of game... for my style, one of objective reality (which 5e's bounded accuracy works great for), 5e's DC charts provide a more practically useful measure...
I just think that level is always a major focus in D&D, so why not work from there? I always want to know what the INTENT is. This is why people say 4e is 'more transparent', its tools are meant to convey information like this. They might be a little less objectively descriptive in some sort of 'gazateer sense', maybe. Oddly though I don't worry too much about my world at that level.

Opening a lock... seriously? how about infiltrating Vecna's vault and spiriting away his Book of Unknown Secrets out from under his nose? Now that's a SC... an entire SC for opening a lock is over kill... all IMO of course.
I didn't want to get into a totally OT discussion of SC framing. This is after all a 5e thread... You might, depending on your dramatic needs frame the whole heist as a single SC. You might also just make the multiverse's most dire lock a whole encounter in and of itself with multiple facets. Either way is cool.

I thnk it was kinda crappy when it was first released and never recovered with many from the bad rap it got... even after being revised multiple times.
Well, the whole War is dead and buried now. Many people weren't willing to be open-minded about ANYTHING. Too bad for them...

Hmm... my Far North sandbox doesn't scale monsters to the players... it allows them to decide what regions they enter and the region determines the monsters they encounter... which even then vary in their CR...

Sure, and I don't see this as opposed to 4e's concepts either. It isn't demanding that each time the PCs stumble upon an adventure it be rescaled to their level. Mostly 4e assumes some degree of plot and story development. So presumably the structure of the campaign arc will dictate roughly what happens when. If you are in a more 'sandbox' type environment, then presumably the DM will telegraph to the players somehow what areas of the sandbox they're going to want to concentrate in. I guess you could just get really old-school and let the party blindly fumble across the hex-map being eaten by unfortunate dragon encounters until they luck out. Its not really an ideal approach in 4e, but you really CAN make a character in 2 minutes in CB, lol.
 

Remove ads

Top