D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

Oh, we've reached personal attacks now? Sorry to break it to you, but it's objectively true that the more limitations that one must follow, the less variation in results you will have.



From your statement that you don't feel like you can do anything unless you know the rule for it.

As for the rest of your comments, if you're gonna attack me personally, then there's no reason to continue this any further.

No personal attack was intended. I was merely pointing out that 'objectively true' doesn't work here, that's all. I have no idea what other things I've said that came across as personal attacks. I thought my tone was rather conversational. Sorry if it didn't seem that way to you. I don't always agree with you, but its certainly not personal.
 

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There's a bit of talking past each other going on here.

What 4e does well is it answers the question: what DC should this be if I want my characters to have, say, a 40% chance of success, or a 60% chance of success?. That is, it's relative to the party. That's why it scales - higher level party, higher DC's, to have the same chance of success. The DC might mean different things depending on the DM and the context (a 40% chance at level 1 might be a well-made lock, a 40% chance at level 30 might be the gates of the lock on some trapped god's cage)

One of the criticisms of that is the "treadmill" - higher level characters face higher DC's and so have the same chance of success regardless of level - the item changes, but it's only superficial.

5e's answer to that criticism is that it answers a slightly different question: how hard is this task for someone to do? That is, it's relative to the world. That's why it doesn't scale - the lock on an imprisoned god's cage isn't a lower DC because the party happens to get there at 5th level rather than at 30th. The level of the party doesn't matter, it's still a DC 25 (or whatever) task. Thus, a party that manages to get to the cage at level 3 is going to have a more difficult time unlocking it than the party that gets to the cage at level 20. It doesn't give you the chance of success at a particular level ("never tell me the odds!"), because it doesn't want to keep a tight lid on the different bonuses and options a character might bring to bear.

The big change is that the DM in 5e shouldn't worry much about what the party is capable of, they should worry about how difficult this thing is in the world. You can chuck a DC25 god-cage-lock at your 1st-level party. It's up to them to figure it out, or come back later, or pump up one person's ability check, or bypass by slipping the halfling in between the bars...

That's one of the ways that 5e encourages organic gameplay moments. Where 4e would tell you, "give your players a 60% chance to succeed on most checks, vary it by a little bit occasionally, and the game will keep ticking forward," 5e says "put it on the players, and let them explore their options - they may surprise you, or not, but it'll be up to them to figure it out, not you to hand it to them."

Oh yes, that's the word, treadmill!

It does get you in shape, but you're not really moving :)

I guess what counts is whether you prefer the journey (actual improvement instead of the mere illusion of it), or the destination (fitness to solve a task that's automatically suited to your character despite there being no story reason for that). This analogy is true about 4e on so many levels.

I actually like treadmills in real life, at the gym, because it's my mind that wanders, and my body is still getting fit despite not moving. It gives me precise control over slope and duration and velocity.

But when I go for a bike ride, I can't compare it to a stationary bike, it's a real experience, and full of wonder.

Problem is, D&D is already imaginary, so giving your imaginary PCs an imaginary workout seems redundant and pointless to me. Give them a real workout, and let them come back when they're good enough to pick that DC 25 lock. Not every challenge that PCs come across should be winnable the first time they come across them. This is why I agree with others that static DCs (and ACs) make much more sense. They help anchor the world in its own fiction and maintain consistency. When every obstacle, every enemy, every lock, every cliff face to climb, are all automatically scaling to the PC's current abilities, that rubs me the wrong way.

If you come across a DC 25 lock that nobody can currently pick, then it's a question of improvisation, like you said. and that's great. Means you might not be able to win a fight or beat this current obstacle or monster in a square fight or ability check, but if you manage to get some situational bonuses together through clever gaming or get around the problem, that's just as a good. Better. I like encouraging creative play. Straight up dice rolling has its place, but sometimes it's really fun to win something that is supposedly unwinnable just looking at the default math of the game. It's hard if not impossible to do that if your improvisation rules strictly do not allow you to do something much better than your normal, straightforward powers would allow you to. That's why I think those kinds of floating DCs and improv rules don't work.
 

I just think that level is always a major focus in D&D, so why not work from there? I always want to know what the INTENT is. This is why people say 4e is 'more transparent', its tools are meant to convey information like this. They might be a little less objectively descriptive in some sort of 'gazateer sense', maybe. Oddly though I don't worry too much about my world at that level.

Don't work from there because not everyone enjoys that play style of ever scaling threats...


I didn't want to get into a totally OT discussion of SC framing. This is after all a 5e thread... You might, depending on your dramatic needs frame the whole heist as a single SC. You might also just make the multiverse's most dire lock a whole encounter in and of itself with multiple facets. Either way is cool.

If you say so... again SC's weren't my cup of tea and once they were ironed out I found them kind of pointless... It was formalizing something I was already doing.

Well, the whole War is dead and buried now. Many people weren't willing to be open-minded about ANYTHING. Too bad for them...

Or... they just didn't like the game... then it's kinda great for them that 5e showed up.


Sure, and I don't see this as opposed to 4e's concepts either. It isn't demanding that each time the PCs stumble upon an adventure it be rescaled to their level. Mostly 4e assumes some degree of plot and story development. So presumably the structure of the campaign arc will dictate roughly what happens when. If you are in a more 'sandbox' type environment, then presumably the DM will telegraph to the players somehow what areas of the sandbox they're going to want to concentrate in. I guess you could just get really old-school and let the party blindly fumble across the hex-map being eaten by unfortunate dragon encounters until they luck out. Its not really an ideal approach in 4e, but you really CAN make a character in 2 minutes in CB, lol.

Sandboxes have story and plot development... My PC's all have stories that they've created through their actions... but they also explore because it's a driving force in-game for them to adventure and has it's own benefits outside of their individual stories. I don't telegraph to them what areas they want to concentrate in, but they have sources of information available to them that can feel them in on what certain areas hold... though these aren't always 100% accurate.
 

But it is objectively true that the more freedom you are given (less defined rules as how you MUST do something), the more options you have.
So, first of all, you're conflating freedom with options, second, you're missing that the system can't say that the DM "MUST" do something. Well, it can say it, it's just powerless to enforce it.

So if you have 10 canned options, or the option of just making something up yourself, you have 11 options. If you have 100 canned options, and the option of just making up something yourself, you have 101 options.

I think what you're trying to get at is a sort of 'less is more' philosophy, which isn't innate wrong (or right), but is more of a personal thing.

Also, you might only stick to things written on your character sheet or in a book, but I'm here to tell you most other people don't. Especially in more rules-lite systems like B/X or 5e.
There's no need to stick to only explicit options, in /any/ game. That's why more explicit options is more options - because the option of not using them was always there.

And there's plenty of instances where 5e decides to go that way, instead of leaving everything undefined. Spells for instance, it devotes a large portion of PH pagecount to spells, when it could have gone and presented some kind of freeform DM-ruling-driven verb/object system like Ars Magica, and let the player describe the spell they're trying to cast and the DM describe the results of the attempt, calling for a Spellcraft roll of whatever DC seemed reasonable if he wanted.

Why didn't D&D go all the way and make everything as vague as checks (or even less defined, still)? Because 5e isn't really trying to be rules-lite, it's trying to be familiar to D&Ders across edition preferences, and D&D had no skill system at all, initially, then tried o na new with each later ed. So a desultory, vague system doesn't impede anyone's sense of familiarity with the game, while a detailed rank-based system, for instance, might have.

I get that you're being zealous in defending 5e from an imagined slight, but it's really a non-issue. 5e isn't trying to be the best D&D ever, just trying to be familiarly, identifiably D&D - and succeeding brilliantly. Just because 5e's slightly incoherent combination of rules-lite 'skill' checks with rules-heavy spell lists, profoundly abstract hps with relatively concrete healing, and so forth might not be the best possible or most consistent way to design a good RPG doesn't mean it's not the best way to design a game to make it recognizeably, /really/ D&D.
 

Disagreeing with you doesn't make me a "zealous slighted defender". And seeing as we already had one person come right out and say they didn't want to attempt anything unless there was a rule for it (because "rulings suck"), I'm afraid your argument is already wrong. I.e., when a ruleset sets a very clear structure of how to do something, it directly impacts a person's likelyhood of going outside of that box; that they want to remain within that clearly defined structure. We've seen it already in this thread.

But it seems we've come to that point where "your side" has had to resort to saying I'm losing touch with reality, or I'm a zealous defender who is slighted, which tells me that you care less about acknowledging what I'm actually saying, but are wanting to attack me personally because I don't agree with you and have provided evidence as to why.
 

There's a bit of talking past each other going on here.

What 4e does well is it answers the question: what DC should this be if I want my characters to have, say, a 40% chance of success, or a 60% chance of success?. That is, it's relative to the party. That's why it scales - higher level party, higher DC's, to have the same chance of success. The DC might mean different things depending on the DM and the context (a 40% chance at level 1 might be a well-made lock, a 40% chance at level 30 might be the gates of the lock on some trapped god's cage)

One of the criticisms of that is the "treadmill" - higher level characters face higher DC's and so have the same chance of success regardless of level - the item changes, but it's only superficial.
That's certainly a good starting point. I think I might have some more to say about that further on.

5e's answer to that criticism is that it answers a slightly different question: how hard is this task for someone to do? That is, it's relative to the world. That's why it doesn't scale - the lock on an imprisoned god's cage isn't a lower DC because the party happens to get there at 5th level rather than at 30th. The level of the party doesn't matter, it's still a DC 25 (or whatever) task. Thus, a party that manages to get to the cage at level 3 is going to have a more difficult time unlocking it than the party that gets to the cage at level 20. It doesn't give you the chance of success at a particular level ("never tell me the odds!"), because it doesn't want to keep a tight lid on the different bonuses and options a character might bring to bear.
My only disagreement is the idea that there's a notion that in 4e you'd change the DC if a level 5 party stumbled into your level 30 adventure. I don't think 4e's rules are intended to answer that question, and thus this use case is not envisaged. Now, maybe if such an eventuality came up, that's what you WOULD do, but I don't think we can know without a lot more context. I would think in general that if you were introducing level 30 content into your level 5 game you'd plan that ahead somehow.

The big change is that the DM in 5e shouldn't worry much about what the party is capable of, they should worry about how difficult this thing is in the world. You can chuck a DC25 god-cage-lock at your 1st-level party. It's up to them to figure it out, or come back later, or pump up one person's ability check, or bypass by slipping the halfling in between the bars...
I don't think this is really different in ANY edition. In fact in a sense this kind of thing is ALWAYS in play. For a given party it is generally an environmental assumption that walls are impenetrable, that you can't really defy gravity, etc. Any variances on these sorts of assumptions are explicit, or involve very high level PCs. Likewise the unpickability of the lock of a mad god of secrets by level 1 PCs can simply be considered a given. You wouldn't really need to assign a 'DC' as such if this element was introduced into the level 1 play. Logically its a thing the PCs might have to establish by trying to pick it, as there are level 1 pickable locks, but presumably even in 4e the players would simply adapt and come up with a solution when picking didn't work.

I guess my point is that I don't see it being more or less possible to introduce 'differently leveled' content into one system or another. Every system has a way to say "you can't do this, do something else" inherently.

That's one of the ways that 5e encourages organic gameplay moments. Where 4e would tell you, "give your players a 60% chance to succeed on most checks, vary it by a little bit occasionally, and the game will keep ticking forward," 5e says "put it on the players, and let them explore their options - they may surprise you, or not, but it'll be up to them to figure it out, not you to hand it to them."

So, from my standpoint the hard and fast aspect of this falls based on my previous observation. You can of course talk about the sorts of games that are ENCOURAGED by different rules presentations and content.

Above I said I might have more to say... I think what it is that while I don't know that the 4e devs really were committed to 4e as a 'story game' universally, it really in essence IS. In this kind of game you are always considering the implications of things, and working from the standpoint of what the dramatic meaning of a thing is. How does it figure into the conflict that is ongoing in the story? When you think about things that way, then you really wouldn't be concerned with the thought of a 'treadmill' of checks, or of 'objective world reality' either. You would be thinking about how to focus the story on the dramatic conflict that the players have directed their characters at.

So, when I think about DCs I think about what do the characters need to do in order to make something happen. What do they have to risk? What do they stand to gain? How could this impact the evolution of the character?

An example of the difference here could be secret doors. In my sort of dramatic action play of 4e secret doors can exist for only a few reasons:

1. Atmosphere - The door simply exists because it makes the scene cooler. Instead of the wizard's lab having a regular door, it has a secret door! There is no DC for this door, the PCs just find it. Its not an obstacle, just set-dressing.

2. Plot Logic - The door exists to explain some aspect of the plot. Perhaps the Princess's bedroom has a secret door because there has to be a way to explain how the Vampire gets in when the fighter is guarding the hallway. This door might thus be found ajar when it is discovered that the princess is missing. It could be possible to find earlier, possibly setting different paths for the adventure to go down later, or maybe the DM is being a bit more railroady and sets the DC to 'impossibly high', it will only be revealed as a fait accompli.

3. To delay or challenge the PCs. Maybe the characters will become trapped in this area and need an escape, can they find the door before the Gelatinous Cube reaches the end of the hallway? Stay tuned!

Note that in cases one and two there isn't any need for a DC at all. In fact this is often the case. It may even be that a really clever GM could devise multiple possible adventures that have the same location but only differ in terms of which elements appear to characters of what level. This might be more generally how a sandbox could work in a modern game, only certain parts of the sandbox appear to you at level 1. Later you might return to the same environment and find a whole different experience.

Anyway, my point is that I don't see DCs as a way of explaining the world. They aren't a descriptive tool, they are a proscriptive tool. They do describe the world, but their use is really to help frame things. A really better example might be a secret door that only appears when the blood of an innocent is poured on it. Will the character accept the moral implications of a heinous act? Or will the door remain unrevealed? (obviously there would have to be plot elements in place to frame this conflict for the PC). While DCs are useful, I try not to get too hung up on them, and when I use them extensively its to challenge the players by the totality of all the things they're attempting, not to just sling endless series of 60% success rate checks at them.
 

Problem is, D&D is already imaginary, so giving your imaginary PCs an imaginary workout seems redundant and pointless to me. Give them a real workout, and let them come back when they're good enough to pick that DC 25 lock. Not every challenge that PCs come across should be winnable the first time they come across them. This is why I agree with others that static DCs (and ACs) make much more sense. They help anchor the world in its own fiction and maintain consistency. When every obstacle, every enemy, every lock, every cliff face to climb, are all automatically scaling to the PC's current abilities, that rubs me the wrong way.
But I don't think that was ever the intent. I think the DCs are supposed to reflect the environment the PCs are in, and the natural flow of the game is to have it progress from mundane and rather straightforward environments to increasingly esoteric and unusual ones. ALL games seem to progress this way to at lest some extent. It wouldn't make much sense otherwise. All 4e is doing is acknowledging the facts of the genre.

If you come across a DC 25 lock that nobody can currently pick, then it's a question of improvisation, like you said. and that's great. Means you might not be able to win a fight or beat this current obstacle or monster in a square fight or ability check, but if you manage to get some situational bonuses together through clever gaming or get around the problem, that's just as a good. Better. I like encouraging creative play. Straight up dice rolling has its place, but sometimes it's really fun to win something that is supposedly unwinnable just looking at the default math of the game. It's hard if not impossible to do that if your improvisation rules strictly do not allow you to do something much better than your normal, straightforward powers would allow you to. That's why I think those kinds of floating DCs and improv rules don't work.

Well, there obviously is some way that your DCs ARE winnable. I would say that the 4e approach is for the situation to formulated differently. This is where 4e has a different approach, different intent creates different mechanics. An 'unwinnable fight' isn't a fight in 4e, its a skill challenge (perhaps, it might be just an RP opportunity). The players need to look for some sort of way to remove the obstacle. I think of 4e's mechanics as simply different ways to look at these situations based on story goals, preference, or whatever.
 

Disagreeing with you doesn't make me a "zealous slighted defender". And seeing as we already had one person come right out and say they didn't want to attempt anything unless there was a rule for it (because "rulings suck"), I'm afraid your argument is already wrong. I.e., when a ruleset sets a very clear structure of how to do something, it directly impacts a person's likelyhood of going outside of that box; that they want to remain within that clearly defined structure. We've seen it already in this thread.

But it seems we've come to that point where "your side" has had to resort to saying I'm losing touch with reality, or I'm a zealous defender who is slighted, which tells me that you care less about acknowledging what I'm actually saying, but are wanting to attack me personally because I don't agree with you and have provided evidence as to why.

I think I'm considered a rather creative, one might say cunning and resourceful, player (and DM, but that's aside). So I don't think I fall into the category of people who can't color outside the lines and want a roadmap for every possible thing. I just said that it is empowering when there is a good solid structure and details that cover certain things because then we have some rules for those things. I feel like there's this 'strawman 4e player' that has been created who can't think outside of a box and only wants to endlessly roll checks that pass on an 8+ or something.

Obviously every game has its sweet spots and it will be better or worse received by different people. The whole thread was about things that people think 'suck' in 5e. I don't think it was intended to be all that serious or lead to acrimony.

Its a fact that 4e can lead to highly creative and imaginative game play. I've seen lots of it. That doesn't mean 5e can't. IME the play in our 5e game has been MUCH more stereotyped. Nothing really surprising has happened. Its been interesting enough, the characters have some potential, the personality/goals/etc thing works OK and has produced some fodder for RP. Its a perfectly workable system. I just thought 4e was more inspired. It reaches further. What bothers me about 5e is how very limited its goals really seem to be.
 

What bothers me about 5e is how very limited its goals really seem to be.
They're just different goals. "Create as clear/balanced/playable a game as possible," is a difficult goal, but not an expansive one, it's really pretty basic. "Create a game that resonates with fans of every past edition of D&D, and 'feels' undeniably to /be/ D&D to all of them," is actually a pretty broad goal, it's almost unrealistic in it's ambition, yet it's a goal 5e has met to a large degree. Even people who dislike 5e don't pretend it's somehow "not D&D."
 

What do you HATE about 5th Edition?

I was going to reply Nothing, but then I remembered Sunday's session..

I had six people over for an introduction to RPG:s in general, and D&D 5th in particular. So, I opted for using the Basic Rules posted on WotC site (so everyone had the opportunity to read/browse in advance, without buying stuff).

So, what I realised I actually hate with D&D 5th edition, is the fact that the Basic rules "books" are utterly unfriendly to use because they lack a Table of Contents and Index.. :.-(
 

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