D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

[Celtavian]

People play RPGs for a variety of different reasons, and care about each reason in varying proportions. Players may not even be aware of their own tastes, as it takes time and honest introspection to analyse such things.

DMing needs to be its own reward as it does involve more work than the average player. DM burnout is an issue, as creativity may not be infinite, OOC group tensions can rise, the game may drift in a direction undesirable to the DM, rules bugs may proliferate etc. But most players I know of appreciate DMing can involve work, and I suspect players would provide positive feedback to you if they were aware it was useful.

Myself, I cared about mechanics and rules first, so I can understand goal-oriented players trying to use the rules to achieve in-game success. Looking at RPGs as a game foremost, this is logical and makes sense. Using the most powerful options available and exploiting broken rules, similarly. I personally enjoy seeing my players use their brains to try and solve the world.

The downside is dealing with badly written, ambiguous or broken rules, and trying to balance things so the game is fun, when the rules themselves don't do so. (Incidentally, this is one reason why a lot of referees and players like better game balance in games, as it reduces the need for constant rules wrangling, cuts down on arguments and leaves more time for plot and story, the fun stuff).

Rules based player optimisation is based on the thesis that the rules are being used to resolve everything and maximising the "important" PC abilities will result in a higher success chance. If this starts irritating the DM sufficiently the thesis becomes no longer true, and it may require an OOC discussion about what the game is about. Such discussions may require compromise, or realisation that some of the players primary enjoyment comes from PC min-maxing, and yours doesn't. (this may or may not be the case).

As time as gone on I have grown to care more for plot and story than I did. Partially this is because my current players care more for story and plot and are less goal-oriented and more dramatic, so my game has drifted in that direction. Being a DM most of the time, I have come to accept that a perfectly realised gameworld is impossible and not worth the extreme effort entailed, and focusing on the elements of the world the individual players are interested in has a better return on investment.

Min Maxing players may not perfect fit players for someone who cares primarily for story and plot, the game working out in particular ways. Rules often don't respect the preferred story line.

Most of the problems I've seen in these games is due to the game designers failing to see a combination of abilities that creates a serious balance problem if run RAW and not bothering to design the higher level game with the same concerns they use to design the lower level game. It often feels like they don't playtest the game past level 10. It starts to breakdown because of the lack of testing. 5E has ameliorated some of this with compressed math. Past editions have used mathematical models that become unwieldy past level 10 or so.

 

[Manbearcat]

Hey Manbearcat. We've had our share of great, productive conversations, and our share of disagreements. So, with all of that history, I wanted to ask you an honest, civil question:

Why is this so frustrating?

Hey JC.

Just want to make sure that we're squared away on what I find frustrating. I don't find it frustrating that people don't compromise (eg don't compromise and come to my position! ). I don't find it frustrating that we have different preferences (system and play goals). In fact, that is precisely why I like engaging folks. That makes for healthy TTRPG discussion. I mean I could chat with several people all day long and we could have nary a disagreement. But we may not be able to provide as much interesting, stimulating discourse with each other as well.

What I find frustrating it (what seems to me) an urge to engage on the technical matters of PC building (and related) but (for whatever reason) there is resistance to vigorous, technical evaluation of system and GMing techniques (including posting, what I feel are the most constructive, play examples). Further, there is (what seems to me as arbitrary) admonishing of it when folks (such as myself) do try to engage in technical details of system and GMing techniques. Again, I don't know if it is because there is a very strong undercurrent of "it is more art than engineering" or "system doesn't matter because good games are mostly born on the back of utilization of strong GM Force" or if it is something else entirely.

I just want to chat with fellow GMs about systems and techniques. I want to do it because I think it is the MOST healthy discussions possible for our hobby because (a) it makes each of us better GMs and (b) because folks who are wanting to become GMs (and likely lurking) can gain invaluable insight.

That's all.

Here's an honest question... Did you really think you were going to find this in a thread titled... "Why Does 5e Suck?"?

Honest answer:

I assumed it was pretty obvious that the original poster was trolling and trying to stir up trouble. I figured everyone was past the thread title and the OPs intent. I saw some constructive conversation that I was interested in chucking some words at (with you and improvised actions) and several posters that I enjoy discussing games with.

So I guess the answer is, yes, I hoped to.

 

[Manbearcat]

I know, right?

My theory is two-fold. One is that GMs have strong personalities and I just think things get taken too personally, out of context, delivered insensitively, and so on. In response, GMs are unlikely to just accept it and move on because of said strong personalities, so things keep going down the road less constructive.

The other is that people are too tied up with the need to fight the edition fight*, whether it's to hate on other editions, defend against "haters", or justify their preferred edition. Sadly, I think my theory may be pretty spot on. I mean how much of this DC setting theory conversation is actually about the differences and their pros and cons rather than which one is "better"? And then the comments about how So-and-so's example is "BS" and So-and-so's counterpoint is "corner case" or a "strawman" or etc. And yeah, sometimes those call outs are true.

Now you combine those two and you've got a nice mixing pot for crap as opposed to constructive conversation.

*Let's not kid ourselves, the edition war isn't over, only the "battlefield" and tactics have changed.

it is unfortunate, but both of your theories may very well be part of the medley.

Whatever it is, I'd rather it just go away.

The reason there is not much talk from a GMing viewpoint on general forums is the majority of posters are players.

Maybe so. I don't know. But beyond the actual participants, how many would-be GMs are lurking? Consider my post just above to JC. I learned my craft by watching other GMs and bettered it by not only practice, but also by trying out lots of different systems and participating in discussions or just Q and As. Constructive, technical dialogue amongst tenured GMs is very healthy (again, I would say THE most healthy thing) for our hobby.

 

[Imaro]

Honest answer:

I assumed it was pretty obvious that the original poster was trolling and trying to stir up trouble. I figured everyone was past the thread title and the OPs intent. I saw some constructive conversation that I was interested in chucking some words at (with you and improvised actions) and several posters that I enjoy discussing games with.

So I guess the answer is, yes, I hoped to.

I can see your point, I just think the title along with the 4e vs. 5e vibe in the thread... which admittedly I have contributed to... have put posters in too offensive/defensive of a mood to accomplish what you want. I'd love to talk game theory... but not really through the lens of D&D... I think there's just too much baggage when trying to frame these discussions in terms of D&D as opposed to RPG's in general...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm confused... a very hard DC is 25...at 8th level prof is a +3... so unless a character has both training and a high attribute...(+2 or more in Wisdom) then there's a chance you auto fail. Which is exactly the feel I described earlier that I wanted for this campaign.

Another example: Breaking out of standard manacles requires a DC 20 Strength check according to the PHB (or a DC 20 Dex check to wriggle out). A typical bookish sage or wizard may very well have Str 8, which makes breaking the manacles impossible for him. If his Dex is also 8, he'll just have to make unarmed attacks on them with his forehead until the thing's 15 HP are exhausted.

 

[Imaro]

Heh. It's kinda funny. Imaro's blizzard example uses DC's from medium to very hard. But those DC's are determined by the system which is, in turn, determined by level. Because 5e's skill system is largely flat, it works fine. But, if we read Chapter 8 of the 5e DMG on determining DC's, we see that as soon as we go beyond those stock DC's, we are advised to take level into account.

I think you're really stretching here... let me see if I've got this right. The fact that the DC's stay the same no matter what level the PC's are means...they are determined by level... say what now? If anything that means level is no longer a consideration for setting DC's...

Yeah Chapter 8 does warn that certain extreme DC's will be nearly impossible for low level characters (though I would argue they should have said low capability since even a level 20 character can have a 0 bonus for a check)... but nowhere does it tell you to change your DC because of this and honestly it's a (pretty self evident) warning, higher DC is harder... nothing more.

 

[tyrlaan]

That is this thread. I was speaking of forums in general.

I realize that.

Taking some conservative guesses, I'd say the following threads at minimum on the first page are GM initiated.

"Monsters for a Second Monster Book"
"If the Characters are Super Optimized Should the Monsters be Boosted Too"
"What to do if a Player Keeps Reading the Adventures"
"Dealing with a Trouble Player and a Major Blow Up"
"My Players Didn't Like 5e Help Me Get Them Into It!"
"Running a Game for a 6 Year Old"
"PotA - Map Discrepancies"
"How Do You Prepare/Build Encounters in 5e?"
"Random Dungeon Creator"
"PotA: Earth Cultists Wouldn't Mine the Earth. Alternatives?"
"GM's - How Do You Handle Identifying Magical Items?"
"Princes of the Apocalypse - Andandoned Quarry"

Now I guess if you meant majority as in like 51% then I must concede, but it certainly seems to be a healthy mix to me.

Stating the truth about players does not require a break any more than stating the truth about people in general would require taking a break from them. People in general are self-centered and unconcerned with the bigger issues that the controllers of an activity are concerned with whether it be a business or a sports organization. The general truth of the self-centered nature of people is as applicable to gaming and specifically DMing as any other activity. I know there are people that don't like to acknowledge unpleasant truths and that is fine. I've dealt with that common problem in discussions like this forever. Even with friends I do not overlook the negative nature of a person. I acknowledge it and adapt.

I'd say that perhaps you are speaking the truth of your players or those you've played with, but I have definitely seen players that do not fit your definitions remotely so neatly or closely. And to me it still sounds like you have a nice chunk of resentment there either way, but it's all up to you of course, so never mind.

I can see your point, I just think the title along with the 4e vs. 5e vibe in the thread... which admittedly I have contributed to... have put posters in too offensive/defensive of a mood to accomplish what you want. I'd love to talk game theory... but not really through the lens of D&D... I think there's just too much baggage when trying to frame these discussions in terms of D&D as opposed to RPG's in general...

I think you are right. Though ultimately isn't it up to us to move past the baggage instead of allowing it to keep bogging us down?

 

[Imaro]

I think you are right. Though ultimately isn't it up to us to move past the baggage instead of allowing it to keep bogging us down?

The problem is the baggage is still here. Want to talk game theory and ideas let's start a new thread for that and do it while leaving an inflammatory/trolling thread like this to serve it's intended purpose or fade off the page... IMO that's moving past it.

 

[tyrlaan]

The problem is the baggage is still here. Want to talk game theory and ideas let's start a new thread for that and do it while leaving an inflammatory/trolling thread like this to serve it's intended purpose or fade off the page... IMO that's moving past it.

When you said baggage I thought you were speaking in general, not specific to the thread...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

*gasp* Maybe this thread will finally die?!