Why does Undead=Evil

[Incenjucar]

Ahem.

There is no logical argument, within the confines of the D&D RAW, that shows that using the corpses of creatures in any way is inherently evil, just like killing, causing pain, imprisoning, theft, and so forth, do not have inherently evil ties (indeed, to WotC's credit, they didn't shove a bunch of alignment absolutes up our arses. at least not in the core).

For evil, you have to show malice or knowingly harming someone without remorse.

In D&D, the soul requires the body to return to. IF it is going to return. However, serfs rather rarely have that sort of spare cash. If they die, chances are, they stay dead. The body is something of a portal key for the soul, but one can well sell a portal key if one never intends to use it.

The soul leaves behind an impression, a foot print in the mud that is the body. From the way the text explains it, it would seem that the will of the former body owner creates a more complex thought pattern, more difficult to gather. Considering that a sleeping target fails all saves automatically, the dead body is actually treated as being more defensive than the sleeping living body. Notably, this same effect (sans the save, because there was no mind at any point) works for Stone Tell, and similar spells, though I'm not sure which of them were ported to 3e. However, there is absolutely no reference to how this effects the soul itself, and, likely, there is none.

Flesh is flesh. In the real world, we make use of the dead all the time. In the real world, we usually -respect- organ donors, who leave their legacy of flesh in another even after their death. A willingly-given body is basically just one big giant organ. Is it any worse to have your body be a house keeper than to be cut open and experimented on by medical students? What about when they do experiments with electricity to try and make muscle tissue move?

--

Society's acceptance isn't what's important, what's important is the motive of the individual.

If a society accepts random sexual encounters, without the consent of an individual (some strange peace-keeping tradition, or whatever), and despite their upraising, someone tries to refuse, but is forced anyways because the rapist just doesn't care what they feel, that, then, is an evil act.

However, in that same society, if someone grabbed you to take you out back, but you just accepted it with a shrug and a grin, and they did it solely out of society's ways, it wouldn't be evil. It'd just be bonobo-style.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed by author

 

[Talon5]

Silver,

That's pretty close. If that is indeed Scion's pov then that's what I figured. I understand that societies all over the world view rights differently and what seems acceptable to some is considered evil by others.

Raven that was very interesting. I accept the ideas you put forth in that and commend you on the writing- very cool indeed, not preachy either.

Apologies extended to those who found offense in what was being said. I never felt that my point was heard and still don't (re- evil) but from what I have read evil is more accepted then I wished to know, so thank you very much

Silver- again thanks

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

*applause*

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now, folks... we are all going to keep this thread civil and avoid taking shots at the other posters, aren't we?

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Incenjucar]

As skeletons and zombies are always neutral evil, as creatures that are always evil "may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it," and as skeletons and zombies cannot possibly be said to have gained their alignment through heredity, it must be that the alignment comes from a plane that predetermines it.

Or that the spell itself is what supplies the alignment. Considering that certain fiends are capable of casting the spell naturally, it is likely that it originated with them. They are, thus, going to teach the 'tainted' version, rather than trying to purify it. The deities, on the other hand, who grant the spells, are generally going to prefer evil-aligned forces which their clerics can more readily empower.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Incenjucar]

Precisely my thinking. Or, in the case of "Eye Bite", I'd expect a Night Hag, or, at least, a powerful Hag Covey, invented it.

Evil would, after all, be happy to put a teeny bit of energy towards making the world a creepier place. In exchange for a bit of personal power, they are happy to make it slightly easier for Necromancers and Evil clerics to raise undead armies (since sane mortals would probably avoid them more often than goodly leaders).

I'd either up the level, increase the material cost, increase the physical requirements (time, contact, etc) a bit for the non-aligned version, but maybe make aligned versions for all, with slight quirks to reflect it (maybe different resistances that somehow relate to alignment...?).

I've seen psuedo-undead animated by the primary elements rather than 'energy', so it's hardly a new idea. Just a really interesting one.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Voadam]

One may then assume that animate dead draws upon the imprinted soul remaining in a corpse or skeleton to provide a general understanding of orders given, and a reasonably complex ability to carry them out.

That last paragraph was flat-out wrong. The SRD and Monster Manual are clear in stating that the skills, feats, and abilities of undead animated dead are not based upon the skills, etc., that they had while living, but based upon their creature type. Therefore, it seems conclusive that the motivating factor is either completely new (replacing the old soul imprint, and making speak with dead, reincarnation, and raise dead useless thereafter) or totally remakes it (to the same effect).​

Also note that the animated corpse can be commanded and it does not say the creature needed to be able to speak your language when it was alive. You could command an animated dead dear to follow you or to guard a place and it will. So based on the animate dead spell itself it seems that it is not the former knowledge of the corpse but the spell that provides the awareness.