D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[FrogReaver]

WIS is a useful stat MAD or not, clerics count fully towards spell level progression and gain subclass features at 1st level, it's an armor upgrade, and it's a lot of 1st-level spells known and prepped.

1 level of cleric is a decent splash.

Still delays important higher leveled spells by a level. When you compare that way the wizard is nearly always ahead on odd levels and the cleric 1 /wizard X is nearly always ahead on even levels. I find the power differences by higher level spells to be better than the power differences of a bit of ac and healing word and guidance - and so I would rate the single class wizard higher than the cleric wizard.

 

[Ashrym]

Still delays important higher leveled spells by a level. When you compare that way the wizard is nearly always ahead on odd levels and the cleric 1 /wizard X is nearly always ahead on even levels. I find the power differences by higher level spells to be better than the lower power differences and so I would rate the single class wizard higher than the cleric wizard.

This one I think is worth it. It's a quick 4 or 5 spells prepped, more cantrips (including the popular guidance), domain abilities, and adding armor and a shield is a big upgrade.

I get what you are saying about level delays and normally avoid them like the plague. This one gives enough benefit for a single level that I like it on a few classes.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Metamagic is awesome, but where are all these sorcery points coming from?

Like I stated, 1st lvl not so great a comparison point....so it is 2nd level.
Ashrym, your prose indicates intelligence, so please, given this thread was started in good faith, (Despite the click bait title...but eboards are eboards ), I would appreciate focusing on the points made, and not editorial errors, with no credible acknowledgment of arguments made.

In deepest sincerity, I am interested in people’s thoughts, and this is not intended as an ad hominem**

I am not interested, however in rhetorical games.....let us just communicate, and not try to “win”.

MoonSong, if the class footing is so off, and a large body of spells known is needed....then wouldn’t a viable solution be to make Sorcerers CHA based Wizards and eliminate the Spellbook?

Wizards are the ONLY class after all that Literally has to pay gold pieces to use a class feature.

"Hey Wizard player, everyone around you at the gaming table gets some cool new features and new spells, for free. You get a handful of new spells as well, but hope you brought gold, because you have to PAY gold for them"

Honestly, thematically what heavy lifting, what archetype is the Sorc, the best and only way to represent it? If the Sorc class disappeared in the Forest Perilous would the worlds of D&D stop working, is this an essential class?

Keep in mind what I have stated before, I like the UA changes....they are cool, but give the Wizard some ribbons....how about Arcane Implements ala 4e or some other flavor points.

To use an analogy....if the Sorc is a high performance car and the Wiz is a SUV,
then many people on this board are saying if the auto manufacturer decided to add a feature, say air conditioning to the Sorc Spotscar to broaden the appeal, the auto manufacturer should not add air conditioning to the Wiz SUV because it already hauls kids well?

 

[pemerton]

Wizards are the ONLY class after all that Literally has to pay gold pieces to use a class feature.

I don't think this is right. Being able to use the best armour is a class feature for several classes, especially fighters. But armour has to be acquired, with the default method being gold piece expenditure.

 

[Ashrym]

Like I stated, 1st lvl not so great a comparison point....so it is 2nd level.
Ashrym, your prose indicates intelligence, so please, given this thread was started in good faith, (Despite the click bait title...but eboards are eboards ), I would appreciate focusing on the points made, and not editorial errors, with no credible acknowledgment of arguments made.

In deepest sincerity, I am interested in people’s thoughts, and this is not intended as an ad hominem**

I am not interested, however in rhetorical games.....let us just communicate, and not try to “win”.

MoonSong, if the class footing is so off, and a large body of spells known is needed....then wouldn’t a viable solution be to make Sorcerers CHA based Wizards and eliminate the Spellbook?

Wizards are the ONLY class after all that Literally has to pay gold pieces to use a class feature.

"Hey Wizard player, everyone around you at the gaming table gets some cool new features and new spells, for free. You get a handful of new spells as well, but hope you brought gold, because you have to PAY gold for them"

Honestly, thematically what heavy lifting, what archetype is the Sorc, the best and only way to represent it? If the Sorc class disappeared in the Forest Perilous would the worlds of D&D stop working, is this an essential class?

Keep in mind what I have stated before, I like the UA changes....they are cool, but give the Wizard some ribbons....how about Arcane Implements ala 4e or some other flavor points.

To use an analogy....if the Sorc is a high performance car and the Wiz is a SUV,
then many people on this board are saying if the auto manufacturer decided to add a feature, say air conditioning to the Sorc Spotscar to broaden the appeal, the auto manufacturer should not add air conditioning to the Wiz SUV because it already hauls kids well?

Wizards aren't required to pay to scribe a single spell in their books. I vaguely recall that being the expectation and scribing spells was gravy back in playtesting, but that's a while ago at this point. Either way, the class works fine without scribing any spells or paying the cost. Every discussion I've participated in on it defaults to what is gained via leveling instead of what may or may not be found.

Tome warlocks pay for scribing rituals too. They don't get half price for tradition spells.

Armor is expensive. The typical method of acquiring it is paying for it. Trades and tools require raw materials that have costs for any character using them. Those are some typical examples of costs.

There are benefits and drawbacks to any class. The UA is based on feedback to cover things years of playing has demonstrated. Wizards were giving the benefits listed for specific reasons. Other classes were given specific benefits for specific reasons. This wasn't actually about balance or buffing, and not a slight towards any one class. It was specific. Wizards just don't have a lot to shore up.

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't think this is right. Being able to use the best armour is a class feature for several classes, especially fighters. But armour has to be acquired, with the default method being gold piece expenditure.

Are you seriously comparing the need to eventually buy the best mundane gear for a build in the phb to finding scrolls & filled spellbooks then scribing them to a spellbook all the way to level 20?

Maybe things are very different at your table, but very few of magic items listed on dmg150-226 (magic items chapter) are normally sold for gold rather than being obtained as treasure while adventuring or awarded as rewards for services rendered by NPCs at most tables. Even if a wizard does find a spellbook, there are good odds that it's going to be minimally scribed with just whatever spells were found in the npc's prepped spell list (if that) & because NPCs tend to have similar spells prepped in many cases the book is likely to have a lot of duplicates resulting in a book with 5-10 spells where 3-10 of them are likely to be in one of the spellbooks found previously.

 

[Hussar]

Well, just how many levels of spells can you scribe for 1500 gp?

 

[tetrasodium]

Well, just how many levels of spells can you scribe for 1500 gp?

How much does a set of plate looted from the big bad cost?.. oh wait, it doesn't & it was a ridiculous claim trying to suggest that every other class has expenses on par with the wizard's never ending gp black hole known as a spellbook & you knew it so you asked spell level rather than spells.

 

[Todd Roybark]

In 40 years of playing in this hobby, in my experience by 5th level at least one Magic Weapon has been found, and one adversary is wearing Plate Mail.

So I disagree with the assertion that 5e assumes the PCs buy their Plate Mail. It does not suggest that limitation in the DMG. Respectfully that assertion is quite subjective.

As an aside when 5e came out I rolled all treasure randomly, to kick the systems tires as it were, and with some lucky rolls for a treasure hoard, at 3rd level; a set of Mariners Plate was in a well defended hoard.

The hoard was not taken, but in those hoary days of 2014, when the game was new....I’m sure I am not the only DM that had something similar happen.
( as an aside Plate Armor is probably too much AC even at 5th lvl in 5e)

A quick glance at the published official adventures would also support that by 5th lvl plate mail looting opportunities exist.

As for stating that Wizards do not need to scribe spells into their Spellbooks....that is true,
but that undercuts the soundness of your argument regarding the unalterable uber -ness of wizard versatility.

In this case the Wizard has a practical spell book/ list maximum of 44 spells, versus the 102 so spells on the Druid spell list in the PHB. The Cleric has about the same number, just using column size as a comparison( i’m not counting). The Paladin has 55 spells on their list.

Assuming the Bard and Sorcerer have between 80 to 100 spells on their respective class spell lists, this means that a non scribbling wizard is significantly LESS versatile than a UA Bard or Sorc, on the basis of aggregate number of spells to chose from practically on a day.

As things currently stand, a Wizard must scribe 12 spells to have more spells in their spellbook, than a half-caster Pally has on their spell list. The UA rules put Bards and Sorc in the same category as Divine Casters.....way more spells to chose from than the wiz has in their book.

So, no Wizards are the only class that is expected to pay gold for a class feature.

Sorry, the Aggregate Spell list numbers shreds the versatility arguments that people have been bandying about.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, well, as was said, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone argue that wizards are getting the short end of the stick. The fact that they are the only class that can cast ANY of their rituals at will makes the whole spellbook thing FAR, FAR more versatile than any cleric or druid who, while having rituals, have to burn a memorization slot in order to use it.

The relatively minor expense of a spellbook is hardly going to keep wizards from having extensive spell books.