D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[Hussar]

Umm, you do realize that there is no actual requirement to scribe spells right? Wizards automatically get 2 spells/level in their book for free. The scribed spells are over and above. Now, granted, the divine casters get their whole list (as they always have) but, again, so many of the divine caster spells are so limited in scope, it really doesn't matter that much - how often is Water Breathing going to be your go to spell on a given day?

So, the wizard gets his 2 spells/level + whatever he scribes. The sorcerer gets 2 spells per level, full stop. Bards (more or less) get 1 spell/level. So the wizard and the sorcerer are equal until you add in the fact that the wizard can pay to expand his list and the sorc never can. Meanwhile, the bard is way, WAY back in spells known (as in half as many).

So, in what way is paying for scribing a penalty? Wizards, AFAIK, are the ONLY class that can turn gold into direct character power. That's not a black hole, that's a HUGE advantage.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The more I read this forum, the more I feel like, the next time I run a game, Spell Versatility will not be an option for anyone. Everyone can get Cantrip Versatility though.

FWIW, we allow all classes to know all their cantrips anyway as a house-rule. It works nicely since they are generally low powered and we don't need to worry about cantrip versatility.

Concerning wizards and scribing spells: yeah, there is the 50 gp cost, but the captured spellbooks can be sold to recoup a lot of that. Scrolls can later be used as separate casting sources for non-prepared spells.

Rituals have been incredibly useful in our game. With Phantom Steed, for instance, my wizard doesn't have to worry about the costs associated with having a mount or stabling/feeding costs, etc. as well as having a quicker overland movement that doesn't tire. Granted, she has to recast it every hour or so, but that isn't a big deal so far. Other rituals have been great to have, such as Tenser's Floating disc which we used to transport treasure back to the keep that we couldn't carry otherwise (heavy statue), and Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Identify, Leomund's Tiny Hut, and Water Breathing. Being able to cast all these spells without expending a slot or needing to have them on my prepared list is really good IMO.

Although this began as a "Wizard" thread, all the other prepared casting classes are similarly affected.

At any rate, spell versatility should work fine for our game but we allow prepared casters to swap out a prepared spell on a short rest already, which enhances their versatility as well.

 

[Garthanos]

*wheelie! And yes, it is! On another occasion, he did an endo and kicked up dirt into the eyes of some kidnappers! I was blown away by his mad BMX skills!

I bet if the party was bigger they might all feel inspired and the enemy might even get a bit freaked at his shear gall.

 

[pemerton]

More importantly, many Sorc players like the class because of the limited Spells Known....it is simultaneously a challenge to make a themed spellcaster, while being very easy to just pick up and play as the spell selection is relatively static.

So the Sorc needs to be a little more like a Swiss Army Caster, in order to be fun?

Not in my experience.

OK, so don't use the variant rule?

Well it could go like this:
1 Wizard spends one day scribing a 4th level spell
2 Same day Ranger tracks baddies to weird abandon looking building
3 Rogue finds out the building is called The Temple of a Thousand Locks
4 Flame Sorcerer swaps out Aganazzars Scorcher for Knock

OK. The wizard can also memorise a spell that s/he thinks will be useful in relation to said temple. More than one, even! Presumably s/he envisaged that 4th level spell coming in handy, having spent a day and 200 gp on it.

Part of the fun of playing a wizard is mastering your spell load-out and being more than a one-trick pony. (Whereas that sorcerer is going to be casting a lot of Knock spells!)

 

[MoonSong]

MoonSong, if the class footing is so off, and a large body of spells known is needed....then wouldn’t a viable solution be to make Sorcerers CHA based Wizards and eliminate the Spellbook?

No! it's not that!
Just because I say sorcerers need more spells known, doesn't mean I'm asking for that many. Just a chance to have an extra spell known per spell level or something. Just to be able to afford one or two situational spells.

(On the other hand, if the wizard is oh in so bad shape that they just have to have the option to swap cantrips everyday, why not play a sorcerer make it INT based and then spend a feat on ritual caster?)

Honestly, thematically what heavy lifting, what archetype is the Sorc, the best and only way to represent it? If the Sorc class disappeared in the Forest Perilous would the worlds of D&D stop working, is this an essential class?

For D&D lore, maybe not. But that would still cripple the kind of characters that can be made. The sorcerer class is compatible with all backgrounds in a way the wizard isn't. It also represents the way most spellcasters work in fiction (specially female spellcasters, think Samantha, Jeanie, Circe, Medea, Elsa... ). Compare the kind of subclasses that can be made with each class, there are only so many thematic variations left to explore for wizards (defilers/preservers/high society sorcerer/universalist) while the themes yet unexplored/unsoported for sorcerers are plenty. The sorcerer fills a gap that the wizard just can't cover without houseruling. And it is a big one.

To use an analogy....if the Sorc is a high performance car and the Wiz is a SUV,
then many people on this board are saying if the auto manufacturer decided to add a feature, say air conditioning to the Sorc Spotscar to broaden the appeal, the auto manufacturer should not add air conditioning to the Wiz SUV because it already hauls kids well?

This is more like a rich kid with 20/20 vision making a tantrum because the school is giving glasses to the poor kids for free so they can see the board.

In this case the Wizard has a practical spell book/ list maximum of 44 spells, versus the 102 so spells on the Druid spell list in the PHB. The Cleric has about the same number, just using column size as a comparison( i’m not counting). The Paladin has 55 spells on their list.

A sorcerer "optimized" for spells known caps at 17 of them (or 23 if multiclassing with bard). That means just 17 spots to cover all needs.

 

[MoonSong]

The more I read this forum, the more I feel like, the next time I run a game, Spell Versatility will not be an option for anyone. Everyone can get Cantrip Versatility though.

Well, according to Crawford's video blog, the option is intended for campaigns with slow leveling so...

 

[MoonSong]

Since then there has been a lot of "no that's absurd" and at least one literal nerf request that wizards should have their spells prepped capped at the number of spells known by an 11th level bard I believe it was.

It wasn't a call for it to happen. I said it to mean "If you want it this bad, you should take it with everything it entails. (Becoming a non-prepared caster with limited spells known. After all if it is that good, then you should have no problem with giving up all of the other bells and whistles that make wizards way more flexible than sorcerers)"

 

[DND_Reborn]

Another point for wizards I don't recall coming up yet (along with other prepared casters) is that they can choose their prepared spells from any of the levels they know. Known casters can trade out one spell of a level they know for a spell of a different level only when they level.

Example. A 6th level Wizard with INT 16 could have 9 prepared spells. ALL 9 of the spell could be 3rd level spells if they wanted (and had the chance to find and copy additional 3rd level spells of course). I wouldn't recommend that, of course, keeping at least a 1st and a 2nd prepared so you could use those slots, so let's say 7 prepared spells of 3rd level.

A 6th level Sorcerer knows only 7 spells and at best could know a 1st, 2 2nds, and 4 3rds. Again, keeping a 1st so you could use 1st level slots.

So, wizard prepared: 1/1/7
Sorcerer known: 1/2/4

While I wish Wizards had gotten a bit more love in the UA features article (maybe some ribbons or additional versatility options, like choose a couple spells to become rituals), I don't feel the spell versatility is by any means making them obsolete.

 

[Mistwell]

Are you seriously comparing the need to eventually buy the best mundane gear for a build in the phb to finding scrolls & filled spellbooks then scribing them to a spellbook all the way to level 20?

I would. I don't know your experience with playing wizards to high levels in 5e...but mine is there isn't much scribing of found spells into spellbooks beyond the low levels. The scrolls are far too rare, they cannot be found to purchase beyond low level spells, and it's just not much of a thing beyond the lower levels. Plus, there are not that many useful spells at the highest levels - that's not a dig, there are some FANTASTIC higher level spells, but the good ones simply don't outpace your 2 free ones each level. You just have no need to scribe high level spells - they're free, at a good rate. But even if you did find them, they're cheap at those levels to scribe as well - incredibly cheap at higher levels. Like "lavish dinner" prices, and not "magic item" prices.

That plate armor however is super expensive - so expensive that even if you don't spend a gold piece you're still at mid levels before you can buy it. If you add up that cost alone and compare it to the likely entire-career cost of scribing into a spell book, I think you will find the plate armor is more expensive.

Tetrasodium I strongly get the sense you have some baggage from prior editions concerning how wizards work in 5e. You seem to think they're scribing every new spell. You seem to think high level magic item scrolls are just available for purchase or commonly laying around to scribe. None of those assumptions are valid for 5e. Why are you acting like that's how 5e runs in practice? Is that your experience with 5e wizards in pay at a table or is this you just assuming this is how it works because it worked that way in games you played for prior editions?

 

[Mistwell]

How much does a set of plate looted from the big bad cost?.. oh wait, it doesn't & it was a ridiculous claim trying to suggest that every other class has expenses on par with the wizard's never ending gp black hole known as a spellbook & you knew it so you asked spell level rather than spells.

Wait, first, a spell book looted from the big bad has the same zero cost and is MUCH more of a common thing than just finding a scroll of force cage (and the cost of actual scribing is really low). Second, I've played several fighters in this game and every time I had to buy the plate armor rather than find it.

It's not a ridiculous claim, and you just declaring it so without any support isn't persuasive. Your complaint about wizards scribing is literally the first I've seen of it's kind in the over 5 years 5e has been out - here, or at Reddit, or the WOTC boards before they shut down, or anywhere else. You thinking you're speaking the obvious smacks of you living in a bubble and having not considered for a moment the possibility you might be off on this topic. Take a moment and consider - is your experience maybe differing from others by a large degree? Or do you even have the experience with this topic in 5e at the table at all to be declaring other people's views ridiculous for dissenting from yours?

Yeah, well, as was said, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone argue that wizards are getting the short end of the stick. The fact that they are the only class that can cast ANY of their rituals at will makes the whole spellbook thing FAR, FAR more versatile than any cleric or druid who, while having rituals, have to burn a memorization slot in order to use it.

The relatively minor expense of a spellbook is hardly going to keep wizards from having extensive spell books.

My first time seeing it as well. And you and I have been around actively since the beta test. Most build guides I've seen just assume you scribe ZERO spells along the way and just work with the two spells you get for free each level - which makes for a plenty powerful wizard with way more options in their spellbook than spell slots to use them anyway.

I strongly suspect we're talking to someone who thinks 5e works about the same as 3e, and hasn't actually played a wizard to mid or higher levels in 5e to know that the scribing isn't that big a thing in this game. Indeed, most people who actually play 5e beyond the low levels I've seen tend to complain they don't have much to spend their gold on. Some have argued Matt Colville's kickstarter success was at least partially because building a stronghold was SOMETHING to spend that higher level gold on!