D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[tetrasodium]

Lol, wizards don't need a nerf. They just don't need a buff either. They are in a good place relative to 5e mechanics.

Limiting wizards to 15 spells known is a defacto nerf that would result in even a high level wizard knowing fewer spells than an 11th level bard... ;D

 

[MoonSong]

I think that the sorcerer defenders finally came out & revealed their true reason for defending the sorcerer by suggesting literal nerfs to wizard

no. The wizard version is objectively worse than the version rolled into scorlock & bard spell versatility. Spell versatility given to the classes that get it includes the ability to change one cantrip when you finish a long rest as the spell hey can swap. Cantrip versatility given to wizards & clerics is limited to 1 cantrip when you gain a level.
End result is that sorcerer/warlock gets the ability to swap spells like the wizard without the cost of maintaining a spellbook or having options limited to that spellbook (they are limited to entire class spell list) with the restriction of only being able to change 1 spell or cantrip per long rest. The wizard still needs to gather scrolls & spellbooks in order to invest massive amounts of coin into their spellbook & gains an ability to swap cantrips that is objectively worse than what spell versatility allows with cantrips.

The intent of these features is so characters aren't stuck with "bad" choices. The wizard version is "worse", but it does its work (so wizards aren't stuck with ill chosen cantrips forever). The point of Spell Versatility is so spontaneous casters aren't stuck with spells they didn't get to use for extended periods of time in campaigns that level up slowly.

 

[Ashrym]

Limiting wizards to 15 spells known is a defacto nerf that would result in even a high level wizard knowing fewer spells than an 11th level bard... ;D

Yes, but I don't think that was the intent of the post. It was to get people to look at playing from the sorcerer's point of view, if I read it correctly.

 

[MoonSong]

Limiting wizards to 15 spells known is a defacto nerf that would result in even a high level wizard knowing fewer spells than an 11th level bard... ;D

My point was that if you want Spell versatility for the wizard, the wizard needs to be on the same footing as warlocks and sorcerers. They aren't equal, so they cannot receive the same features.

 

[tetrasodium]

My point was that if you want Spell versatility for the wizard, the wizard needs to be on the same footing as warlocks and sorcerers. They aren't equal, so they cannot receive the same features.

Say that when spell versatility is limited to a spellbook with very expensive spells scribed into it & stop acting like the sorcerer isn't getting something amazing by not being limited to a spellbook at the trivial cost of only being able to swap one spell or cantrip from their entire class spell list per long rest. You are frustrated that sorcerers don't get something people with the ability rarely ever do (change large many prepped spells at the same time)

 

[Ashrym]

Say that when spell versatility is limited to a spellbook with very expensive spells scribed into it & stop acting like the sorcerer isn't getting something amazing by not being limited to a spellbook at the trivial cost of only being able to swap one spell or cantrip from their entire class spell list per long rest. You are frustrated that sorcerers don't get something people with the ability rarely ever do (change large many prepped spells at the same time)

Wizards have a lot of spells they don't need to scribe at all. It starts at 6 and ends at 44. The cost of one suit of plate mail is the equivalent of 30 spell levels worth of scribing before taking savant into consideration. Costs are not specific to wizards and well worth the benefit of the ritual casting mechanic. It's literally a gold for benefit ability.

Scribing spells isn't that expensive as far as money sinks go. I see players spending more on healing potions (which is why all my shops have controlled inventory).

I want to point out that wizards don't change much for spells out for a reason. That reason doesn't change for a sorcerer, warlock, or bard. Each has a list of known spells and little reason to actually change them because they've already selected the best spells they could for their builds. Arguing that an ability that wizards don't use is an issue when the other classes wouldn't use it for the same reason seems pointless. If those classes are using it then wizards would use it more effectively for the same reasons. If no one is actually using the mechanic how can it possibly be an issue? And if everyone is using it but the wizard uses it a lot better then how is it a significant issue?

The difference between the classes is actual spells prepped vs known and rituals. Swapping spells isn't major in either case.

What I do see is the opportunity for these classes to make use of spells on their lists they would never normally touch because of situational use. I don't think that's necessarily bad.

 

[MoonSong]

Say that when spell versatility is limited to a spellbook with very expensive spells scribed into it & stop acting like the sorcerer isn't getting something amazing by not being limited to a spellbook at the trivial cost of only being able to swap one spell or cantrip from their entire class spell list per long rest. You are frustrated that sorcerers don't get something people with the ability rarely ever do (change large many prepped spells at the same time)

Like I said before, I don't like the ability in the first place. Sorcerers do need a bit more flexibility -i.e. more spells known- because they rarely get enough spells known to cover their niche, but I don't like the idea of changing spells every day, because it kills the organic flavor and the theme. However I accept it for its intended purpose -so sorcerers and the like don't get stuck for too long in campaigns with slow leveling-. It is a niche variant ability that is intended for that one type of campaign -really watch the Crawford videoblogs-. Cantrip swap is a more general boon that can be put into any kind of campaign. And it cannot be faster because cantrips is the realm of sorcerers and warlocks. It would be like giving wizards metamagic or recharge on a short rest.

As for why wizards don't rewrite their spell lists everyday? Because they have so many spells ready at any time that they don't need to change things that often. If they had to prepare spells at the same numbers that sorcerers do, they would likely have to change them way more often and in higher numbers.

 

[tetrasodium]

My point was that if you want Spell versatility for the wizard, the wizard needs to be on the same footing as warlocks and sorcerers. They aren't equal, so they cannot receive the same features.

no your point misunderstood what I was saying by pointing at spell versatility as evidence for why cantrip versatility should also be 1/rest instead of 1/level

 

[MoonSong]

no your point misunderstood what I was saying by pointing at spell versatility as evidence for why cantrip versatility should also be 1/rest instead of 1/level

Umm. Have you just quoted the same post twice?

 

[FrogReaver]

I think that the discussion about rogues being able to match & exceed wizards in knowledge skills is getting lost in the weeds so to say. You are very unlikely to see a rogue or bard giving expertise to all the knowledge skills your right, but one of them that is deeply important to the campaign (ie religion in an undead heavy ravenloft game) is not unheard of & probably more than adequate. Being the guy who knew stuff was only a very small part of what 3.5 wizards did great & not a very important part at that for reasons someone pointed out earlier, much of it was often plot related & the gm needed to find some way of getting it to the party for the game to progress.

If we were back in the days of 3.5 talking about this when wizards had so many other great pillars of practically unmatched awesomeness still propping them up as a class you'd be making a very reasonable point... but we are talking about 5e and all of those pillars of awesome are pretty well duplicated by others who still have their own pillars of awesome while wizards are still being told "well you have spontaneous casting now... just like every other 5e caster". Nobody is saying that it's bad those other classes have improved, just that it's bad wizard is pale & lacking in luster. You'l probably see more wizard multiclassing now that artificer is also an int based class, but wizards wisely did something they never did with sorcerer or warlock & did the sanity checking needed to make sure they didn't put in front loaded multipliciative abilities like scor/locka/din combinations so that won't really do much for that lack of luster. Doing thing like changing cantrip versatility to onRest & adding the ritual tag to a bunch of spells will however help with it to some degree.

I’ve never viewed the progression of a sorlock multiclass being actually better than a single class sorcerer at any given level (except maybe 19 or 20) So I’m not sure that’s a valid issue to keep bringing up.