D&D 5E Why Don't We Simplify 5e?

[Ralif Redhammer]

What I originally thought I would've liked to see is a core D&D without subclasses. But the more I looked at Five Torches Deep (which admittedly of the two is closer to what I wanted) or Dungeonesque, the more those just feel like 5e with parts shaved off, not streamlined. Every elf is a high elf, every fighter a champion. It reduces its page count by eliminating choices, not complexity.

I think that there could be a simplified 5e, but it would require a redesign more than anything.

 

[Umbran]

Compared to Pathfinder or some non D&D games like Hero 5e, 5e is fairly simple and streamlined.

Compared to actual simple games like Troika!, 5e is complex.

Troika has, what, 110 pages or so? Fate Accelerated comes in at about 40.

So, yes, "simple" and "complex" as we use them here are relative terms.

 

[Mort]

It reduces its page count by eliminating choices, not complexity.

I think that there could be a simplified 5e, but it would require a redesign more than anything.

Is there a way to eliminate complexity without eliminating choices? Aren't the choices where much of the complexity resides?

 

[Umbran]

Is there a way to eliminate complexity without eliminating choices? Aren't the choices where much of the complexity resides?

There are different types of choices, though. Choices in character generation and level-up are not the same as choices at runtime in combat, for example.

 

[Ancalagon]

Troika has, what, 110 pages or so? Fate Accelerated comes in at about 40.

So, yes, "simple" and "complex" as we use them here are relative terms.

about 110 yeah.

There are different types of choices, though. Choices in character generation and level-up are not the same as choices at runtime in combat, for example.

Very good point. There are NO CHOICES in character creation in chess, yet it is a complex game.

 

[payn]

Isnt Heroquest coming back? There be a simplified D&D.

 

[ART!]

I'm with @GMMichael here.

I mean, I love 5E, and in many ways it is a simple game, given some leeway for definitions of "simple". But my experience with introducing players with no or little ttrpg experience to 5E has underscored some complexity that can be very off-putting.

When creating characters, the race entries are first in the book, and they're pretty straightforward: descriptive text, and then a small set of traits. Some of the traits aren't self-explanatory, but you can get the gist from most of them. Cool.

Then you're hit with classes.

Yeesh:

Hit Dice; Hit Points; Hit Points per level; armor, weapon, tool, saving throw, and skill proficiencies; equipment. And then the class features table. And then pages of class feature descriptions. And subclasses, and descriptions of those features.

It's imposing.

God forbid they be interested in playing someone with spells. Shall I count the number of eyes I've seen glaze over when we got to character level vs spell level, and spell slots? It's probably an even number! I'm a very experienced player, and I still avoid playing spellcasters.
.
That's just off the top of my head, and that's not even getting into actually playing.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Is there a way to eliminate complexity without eliminating choices? Aren't the choices where much of the complexity resides?

One way to streamline the game is to simplify the rules of the game without reducing the chargen choices.

Like I wrote earlier, removing the parts you tend to forget or are clunky at your table (Concentration, Expertise, Bonus Action etc) is a good way to simplify the game, but it has a ripple effect. If you change how bonus action works, it requires a lot of work to redo the many character options that depend on them.

When I do such things, I make sure that 1) I wrote it somewhere and 2) I dont go out of the way to preemptively adapt a feature that wont see the light of the day at the table.

 

[Argyle King]

For me personally, I've found that amount of rules (crunch as people say) is not equivalent to simplicity.

As paradoxical as it may sound, sometimes being too streamlined can make a game more complicated because there's not a clear or intuitive answer available for how something ought to be handled.

The biggest hurdle I've experienced when trying to teach D&D to newer players is explaining why what they see as intuitive and natural solutions to problems don't (as per the rules) work.

I've also found that D&D is designed with a very different idea of what constitutes "natural language" than what I would view as being the natural usage of language.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

God forbid they be interested in playing someone with spells. Shall I count the number of eyes I've seen glaze over when we got to character level vs spell level, and spell slots? It's probably an even number! I'm a very experienced player, and I still avoid playing spellcasters.

That's cause D&D is still stuck with the damn spell slot thingy from the past.

Thematic magic groups (Fire, Cold, Enchantment, Illusion, Nature, Storm etc) + a magic point/mana/essence pool would be far easier to grasp and recognizable by most new players because this is how video games and many other medias depict such things.