D&D 5E Why Don't We Simplify 5e?

[Umbran]

Very good point. There are NO CHOICES in character creation in chess, yet it is a complex game.

Yep. Exactly.

 

[Marc_C]

There is a difference between complex and complicated (or even worst convoluted).

 

[overgeeked]

Back in the D&D Next days, my impression of the new edition was that the game would be streamlined and/or have its bumps ironed out. WotC would produce something more accessible to the masses, and maybe even ride the popularity of some lighter-weight games at the time (looking at you, Savage Worlds). Crunch would be Pathfinder's thing, and more power to Paizo.

But here we are with regular rules discussions from WotC, and regular rules discussions here (now in the helpful format of How To articles). A "basic rules" document. An advanced 5e on the way from ENpublishing, and a full-on battle royale thread about the plethora of DMG options. Several threads are about adding more rules to make an aspect run better or more realistically.

And here I thought 5e was about the rulings that the DM would make, not the rules. Players make their characters from the book, and the DM does the rest, right? Why don't we see more discussions here about simplifying D&D?

I think 5E is about as simplified as it could be while still being recognizable as D&D.

That said there’s a few things that could be simplified without making 5E unrecognizable as D&D. Skills, Backgrounds, Personality Traits, etc could all be simplified. Instead of all the word count spent on those, you could simply make those (and class) into keywords that give advantage or cause disadvantage when appropriate. Take the background feature and make it freeform. A player defined particular narrow action that’s automatic but limited in use.

Besides those, you’re basically left with sacred cow territory.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

As others have said...

PHB, No Options. DMG + MM.

Simple. Or, even more simple... D&D Starter Set.

D&D 5e is Simple, but also Complex (not Complicated; two different things). The core "things you'll be doing" when playing 5e...

• 1d20, add modifiers, beat a DC/AC to determine success.
• Roll damage for various successful attacks, subtract this from targets HP pool.
• If HP pool is 0, bad guy dies.
• If HP pool is 0 for PC, roll 3d20's; if 2+ are 10 or higher, you live; if 9 or lower, you die.
• Recover HP's via spells, other magic, or resting.

That's it. That the entire "rules" you'll need to run a D&D game. After that come the Complexity parts...things like how many spells you get per day, or various effects of Conditions, etc. But those are all as-needed and case by case. How you get to those Conditions is via one of the 5 things I just listed.

Now, if you start adding in Options (Feats, Multiclassing, etc) and Other Books (Tasha's, Xanathar's, etc)...you are primarily just adding Complexity, and a bit of Complication for some of the extra rule mechanics if you choose them. It's still 5e, but if you're doing that, then, imnsho, you (generic 'you') have nothing to complain about because you chose to add them.

Fifth Edition is a good system for D&D...as long as you take the time to tailor it to how YOU want to run it. For me and my group, that's PHB, MM, DMG, and no Feats or Multiclassing. Other stuff from other books may be added as a unique, case by case basis, with group input for trial runs. If we like it, it stays as a consistent "option"; if we don't care either way, it stays as case by case; if we don't like it, it's gone. Simple.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Helpful NPC Thom]

I'd love a 5e that more closely resembled Basic Moldvay. Race-as-class is dope.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I think so. If you look at Dungeonesque, you have a reduced set of classes, and no subclasses. But then each one recreates the progression of a single subclass. Whereas if you look at, say, BECMI/OSE/Labyrinth Lord, you actually have more classes to pick from, but they're simpler classes and simpler mechanics.

Is there a way to eliminate complexity without eliminating choices? Aren't the choices where much of the complexity resides?

 

[LordEntrails]

I agree with so many others here, the complexity of the game is totally driven by the DM. The biggest complexity inducer I see is DMs with experience from previous editions trying to bring in or incorporate things from previous editions "that D&D should have".

I've played every edition since '78, D&D can be played a thousand different ways, and it can be as narrative driven or mechanically crunchy as the DM and players want it to be.

5E does an excellent job of providing a game that can introduce ~8 year-olds to D&D and provide enough options and crunch for a large percentage of "experienced" players. And WotC keeps pushing the whole concept of (and rightly so) what some call Core +1 for a good reason. It works for the vast majority and makes the game accessible.

 

[Umbran]

There is a difference between complex and complicated (or even worst convoluted).

Yes, so what is that difference? In professional use for me, it is the following...

A thing is complicated when it has many "moving parts", or it is difficult (or simply takes a lot of words) to describe or specify the details of its internal action.

A thing is complex when it is difficult to describe its function or the end result of its action.

So, a mechanical pocket watch is complicated, but not complex. The game of Go is not complicated, but is complex.

 

[The Green Hermit]

You could perhaps have a slightly longer discussion about reducing map-dependency to better support theater of the mind play - maybe make up a Zone scheme for ranges and maps, and the like.

I would be interested in that. I like the map and my minis, but being able to do without would make it easier to play if we were stuck in an airport or something like that. (Not much traveling happening right now, but the world will eventually get back to a new normal.)

 

[The Green Hermit]

I'm quite for the opposite.

Character creation is a great way to introduce basics of D&D.
I would only hand out pre-gen if new player "crashed" the session unexpected or really didn't had the time to make own character. Or of someone dies mid session and you don't want them to leave or be utterly bored for the rest of the session.

Handing pre-gen instead of going through character creation with new player, more or less says that you think that new player is too dumb to comprehend several pages of a book. I would rather spend 2hrs with new player than handing them my own idea what they should play.

I might suggest a class with simple mechanics, like champion fighter or scout rogue, but that is about it.

Our house rule is that a new player needs to pick a fighter, but once they are comfortable with the game, they can trade out to something else if they want, or start multi-classing.