D&D General Why Editions Don't Matter

[Charlaquin]

Maybe because no one was saying this and demanding such is a rhetorical deflection?

Also, I'd very much like them to stop making up excuses for not writing complete rules

 

[payn]

I took the point of the video to be that the stakes of a new edition of dnd, or in discussing the relative merits of any edition over others (i.e. edition warring) are very low. For instance, I see people all the time discussing which retroclone or OSR game will be the key that unlocks proper "old school" play, and I feel that it doesn't really matter. Or rather, if you are aligned with your table in terms of what kind of game you want, you'll end up making slight modifications to any game to match your style, and this is relatively easy to do.

Not for me. I took quite awhile to get my style, and many systems make me fight them hard to get to it. There is a breaking point where I say its too much and bridge too far. Editions and systems absolutely matter to folks like myself.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Did I say most or even a certain number of people felt that way? Did anyone?

 

[Vaalingrade]

"I don't like leeks."

"Do you have a consensus of people who feel that way? If not, you are invalid."

 

[Charlaquin]

Did I say most or even a certain number of people felt that way? Did anyone?

You said they are incomplete. I think the vast majority of people who play the game would disagree. You could certainly argue those people are all wrong. Is that your intent?

 

[TwoSix]

Not for me. I took quite awhile to get my style, and many systems make me fight them hard to get to it. There is a breaking point where I say its too much and bridge too far. Editions and systems absolutely matter to folks like myself.

It's easy to say that things within a genre are the same when looking at them at a high level, but when you're a devotee of that genre, the nuances really start to matter. There's a reason there's hundreds of FPS games or strategy games, after all; TTRPGS are the same way.

 

[Mannahnin]

Obviously YMMV, but for me I had less than two pages of house-rules for 1E or 2E despite playing them for 25 years, none at all for B/X or BECMI.

I have over 150 for the full 5E Mod house-rules I currently have.

Ok, sure. But that may instead be indicative that 5E as written requires a lot of tweaking to make it play the way you want, where 1E and 2E didn't.

But, for example, the 1E initiative system as written is just straight-up busted and incomplete. ADDICT is adequate evidence of that. You literally have to truncate, patch, or entirely replace it just to play the game. OD&D as published literally has no initiative system.

 

[Charlaquin]

"I don't like leeks."

"Do you have a consensus of people who feel that way? If not, you are invalid."

But you didn’t say “I don’t like leeks the 5e rules.” You said “leeks the 5e rules are incomplete.” The former is a statement of personal taste, the latter is an evaluation of an objective quality.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Obviously YMMV, but for me I had less than two pages of house-rules for 1E or 2E despite playing them for 25 years, none at all for B/X or BECMI.

I have over 150 for the full 5E Mod house-rules I currently have.

That is a truly massive amount of houserules for a game for which most people I have played with, watched/listened to play, and talked to about the game, would have maybe 3 houserules total.

Maybe because no one was saying this and demanding such is a rhetorical deflection?

They replied to a post in which I stated that there is no evidence that the feeling of playing an incomplete game is especially widespread, offering “an example”.

My reply to them is entirely in line with the conversation thus far.

 

[Oofta]

Obviously YMMV, but for me I had less than two pages of house-rules for 1E or 2E despite playing them for 25 years, none at all for B/X or BECMI.

I have over 150 for the full 5E Mod house-rules I currently have.

Whereas I have less than a single page. Same with most games I play. I can't imagine playing a game that had 150 pages of modifications or how anyone would keep track of everything.

I'm glad it works for you but you have exponentially more house rules than anyone I've ever encountered in real life.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah…

"I don't like leeks."

"Do you have a consensus of people who feel that way? If not, you are invalid."

If I’d made a statement equivalent to the second, or if you’d made a statement equivalent to the first, you’d have a point.

You made an objective statement that could only be true as stated if there were at least a sizable portion of the user base that agrees with it. If by far most players don’t feel the game is incomplete, then your snide remark about wizards “making excuses” to not complete the game is unwarranted, at best.

They aren’t failing do something other publishes “manage to do”. They’re designing the most successful TTRPG ever published according to what the majority of the base wants from the game, and that happens not to sync with what you want.

That’s it.

 

[CleverNickName]

But...but people keep playing it wrong!

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think the vast majority of people who play the game would disagree.

Now someone has made a quantitative claim. demand comprehensive studies and proof from them.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Whereas I have less than a single page. Same with most games I play. I can't imagine playing a game that had 150 pages of modifications or how anyone would keep track of everything.

I'm glad it works for you but you have exponentially more house rules than anyone I've ever encountered in real life.

Yeah I think I have like…3 houserules? Few enough I don’t bother writing them down, we all just know them.

I do a decent amount of homebrew for stuff like races I want to use that either aren’t published or I dislike the implementation of, and I make custom magic items, spells, feats, adventuring gear, and subclasses, but none of that speaks to an incomplete game in any way. It’s just stuff I’m more into than the average DM.

 

[payn]

Now someone has made a quantitative claim. demand comprehensive studies and proof from them.

I've been told (by others) personal experience is enough

 

[Vaalingrade]

I've been told (by others) personal experience is enough

Only if it's personal experience that agrees.

Otherwise, you better have a Getty poll to back you up.

 

[Charlaquin]

Now someone has made a quantitative claim. demand comprehensive studies and proof from them.

Ok, a significant portion of the playerbase.

 

[gorice]

I would submit that 5e as written absolutely is incomplete, to the extent that it's actually unplayable. There is no group that plays it and does not join to dots with houserules. The trick is, this isn't obvious from a player's perspective. It's the DM-facing part of the game that is incomplete.

For example: under what circumstances do I, as DM, frame a new scene? How 'hard' can I frame it, and what do I take into account when doing so? This is really basic stuff you can't play the game without, and the rules don't, as far as I can tell, really say anything about it.

Then there's stuff like the entire exploration 'pillar', including travel, weather, wandering monsters, etc. These things 'exist' in the game text, but there are no clear procedures for actually bringing them into play.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah I think I have like…3 houserules? Few enough I don’t bother writing them down, we all just know them.

I do a decent amount of homebrew for stuff like races I want to use that either aren’t published or I dislike the implementation of, and I make custom magic items, spells, feats, adventuring gear, and subclasses, but none of that speaks to an incomplete game in any way. It’s just stuff I’m more into than the average DM.

Yeah, I have a ton of history, lore and background information in a wiki that I've built up over the years. But it's information on things like Alfheim is ruled by the Sidhe and is the equivalent of the feywild. That's not house rules, just stating that I don't follow standard default cosmology.

Which doesn't make what @DND_Reborn wrong if it works for them, but if I added up all the house rules I've ever seen anyone use I doubt I'd come up with 15 pages, much less 150.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I took the point of the video to be that the stakes of a new edition of dnd, or in discussing the relative merits of any edition over others (i.e. edition warring) are very low. For instance, I see people all the time discussing which retroclone or OSR game will be the key that unlocks proper "old school" play, and I feel that it doesn't really matter. Or rather, if you are aligned with your table in terms of what kind of game you want, you'll end up making slight modifications to any game to match your style, and this is relatively easy to do.

I mean ... why are the edition fights in D&D so vicious?

Because the stakes are so low.

C'mon. You wanna like One Edition? One Direction? One Bard to RULE THEM ALL? SPLITTER!!!