*Why* full round metamagic for socerers?

[Li Shenron]

Hi,

The title says it all, although, a bit tersely. What is the reason for sorcerers (and other spontaneous casters) to have to spend a full round casting a metamagiced spell?

I know this is the rule, so I'm am not asking for a clarification on the rule's mechanics. I'm looking for a rationale for why this should be the case and/or a game balance reason.

I'm asking because the cost, in terms of using a higher level spell slot, would seem to be enough of a payment for the metamagic effect. Also, because the cost is an extra one that only spontaneous casters must pay.

Thanks!

Tom Bitonti

That this penalty is *necessary* for balance is an illusion.

In fact, we are all just used to the idea that Sorcerer HAVE to get this penalty, but truth is that IF this penalty never existed we would be used to the idea that the Sorcerer would be balanced anyway.

IMHO this is what might have happened during 3e design:
- the 3e designers were a little afraid of introducing a spellcaster who can dodge the D&D traditional preparation rules, and looked for some penalties to compensate: they came up with (1) limited spell knowledge and (2) one spell level delay.
- later, they designed metamagic, and perhaps thought that this was going to give an extra advantage to the Sorcerer, and probably came up with the full-round casting time to give a little more compensation

In practice, the full-round casting time is not a huge penalty. It can make the difference in several situations, but it's not nearly as big as the (1) and (2) penalties...

 

[Darklone]

One thing about sorcerers and wizards often overlooked: At level 18 the sorcerer isn't behind the wizard anymore spell level wise. And that's when the class really shines.

 

[KarinsDad]

IMHO this is what might have happened during 3e design:
- the 3e designers were a little afraid of introducing a spellcaster who can dodge the D&D traditional preparation rules, and looked for some penalties to compensate: they came up with (1) limited spell knowledge and (2) one spell level delay.
- later, they designed metamagic, and perhaps thought that this was going to give an extra advantage to the Sorcerer, and probably came up with the full-round casting time to give a little more compensation

It really has nothing to do with this. It has to do with preventing a Sorcerer from Spontaneously Quickening a spell every round.

A Wizard could prep a bunch of Quicken spells, but he cannot do it spontaneously. If he quickens, a slot is definitively used up for that and if a situation for that Quickened spell does not come up that day, the slot is effectively wasted. If a Sorcerer could spontaneously quicken, then he could cast two spells a round every round and he would not have to decide ahead of time which slots to give up to do so.

 

[brendan candries]

One thing about sorcerers and wizards often overlooked: At level 18 the sorcerer isn't behind the wizard anymore spell level wise. And that's when the class really shines.

That's when we start our new campaign with level 1 characters.

 

[SlagMortar]

It really has nothing to do with this. It has to do with preventing a Sorcerer from Spontaneously Quickening a spell every round.

A Wizard could prep a bunch of Quicken spells, but he cannot do it spontaneously. If he quickens, a slot is definitively used up for that and if a situation for that Quickened spell does not come up that day, the slot is effectively wasted. If a Sorcerer could spontaneously quicken, then he could cast two spells a round every round and he would not have to decide ahead of time which slots to give up to do so.

Then why not let sorcerers use metamagic rods (including quicken) in the exact same way as a wizard? How is a sorcerer using a metamagic rod of quicken any more powerful than a wizard using a metamagic rod of quicken?

Also, if it is all about quicken, why not just bar sorcerers from taking quicken instead of changing how all metamagic works for them?

 

[anon]

It seems to me that many people are estimating the perceived logic behind the rules limitation, but I can't recall anyone actually commenting that they agree with the logic based on their experience.

Has anyone actually let Sorcerers cast metamagic spells with a normal casting time? If so, how did it turn out?

Or more generally, are Sorcerers really perceived as equal to Wizards in your games?


My own experience is that few people play Sorcerers in our games because they are perceived as weaker than wizards. The few that have been played seemed to keep up fine, but in no way overpowered the other characters. My experience suggests that allowing Sorcerers to have normal speed casting when metagmagicing would be just fine, and that the perceived need for a limitation was unfounded.

 

[satori01]

It really has nothing to do with this. It has to do with preventing a Sorcerer from Spontaneously Quickening a spell every round.

to wit I say, So what? /shrug/.
3.0 Haste enabled people to cast multiple spells a round, the game was still playable. In Arcana Evolved, there is a feat that you can take to that enables you to Quicken spells for the cost of a Ladened slot. A Ladened spell basically costs 2 slots of the same spell level.

Thus a 5th level Magister with a high enough Int could potentially cast 2 Sorcerous Blasts in a round for 3 third level slots. Given in AE, you can spell weave 2 lower slots, expending them to give you one slot of the next highest level, this is a distinct possibility.

From experience I can say it was not that unbalancing. Sure the BBEG got a mouth full, but it also meant prepared BBEGs that used misdirection, false fronts, illusions etc, were very frustrating, It also meant the Magister saved up his spells, and shot his load rather quickly.

Quicken spell is not as easy to use as a Laddened spell, adding 4 levels to a spell is rough. So when you say a Sorcerer can cast a Quickened spell every round, you are talking High level here. Like the comment made that Sorcerers rock at 18th level, if you have to wait to 18th level to rock, there is a problem. Likewise, if you are at 18th level, why shouldn't you be using a Quickened spell every round?

Most Wizards will have some Quickened defense spell at that level, most that I have seen in play anyway.

 

[KarinsDad]

to wit I say, So what? /shrug/.
3.0 Haste enabled people to cast multiple spells a round, the game was still playable.

to wit I say, in 3.0, Sorcerers with Haste and Quicken could spontaneously cast 3 spells per round every round. Wizards could cast 3 as well, but their Quicken spell was limited to what was prepared.

Spontaneous Quicken is huge.

It's so big that WotC prevented it with metamagic rods, for all intents and purposes prevented it with Sudden Quicken, and even in the "let's give everything to everyone" PHB II, only allow it a few times per day.

I suspect that the author of metamagic rods did not necessarily realize the reason for the limitation and did not put in on Metamagic Quicken Rods for Wizards.

 

[Vuron]

While 3.0 haste and quickened spells were playable they had a definite tendency of having the spellcasters leave the nonspellcasting characters in the dust at mid to high levels. Given the obvious goal towards intra-party balance across all levels of play it stands to reason that the significant power increase of haste and quickened metamagic needed to be addressed in 3.5.

You might have issue with how far the changes went (sorcerers were nerfed in 3.5) but the balance between party members and between high level spellcasters was largely addressed.

Further given the ability to trade in your familiar for the ability to cast spontaneous metamagic as a standard action 3/day pretty much addresses most concerns I think many sorcerer fans had with the full round metamagic rule.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It really has nothing to do with this. It has to do with preventing a Sorcerer from Spontaneously Quickening a spell every round.

A Wizard could prep a bunch of Quicken spells, but he cannot do it spontaneously. If he quickens, a slot is definitively used up for that and if a situation for that Quickened spell does not come up that day, the slot is effectively wasted. If a Sorcerer could spontaneously quicken, then he could cast two spells a round every round and he would not have to decide ahead of time which slots to give up to do so.

But I don't think that was part of their reasoning when they wrote the 3.0e rules.

Why not?

Because Haste at the time was super-duper-quicken that could be used by sorcerers and wizards equally to blast out double their number of powerful spells (no spell level adjustment required!).

In the face of that, the ability to add in a third spell in the round (of 1st or 2nd level) by expending a 5th or 6th level slot doesn't look especially impressive. Perhaps by 18th level it might be a worry, but limiting a sorcerer through their entire lifetime just because of a potential high level threat? I don't buy that.

Cheers