Why is Online Gaming considered Second Class?

Doing D&D is the same as doing any social activity online. Human communication relies greatly on nonverbal cues; body language, tone of voice, even physical touch, so on. We've developed written language and remote communication, but that doesn't duplicate the experience of being physically in a room with someone. It's good that we have an alternative for situations where meeting in person is impractical, but D&D is by default a tabletop game.
 

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For online gaming I have no bias against it, although I would so much rather have a place at the table than sit in front of my computer and play. I mean if Im just gonna do that I might as well DDO or WoW where I don't have to depend on anyone else for my experience and all the woes that come with VTT.

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I don't think Play by Post or Play by Mail is much like WoW. If it were, more people would do it.
But I don't like WoW-like games, but like PbP. Apples and oranges.

But if I had the time, I would prefer to have a RL group, too.
 

My last face-to-face game of D&D was over 15 years ago. I’ve been running games online since 1995, both play-by-post and chat-based. I haven’t thoroughly investigated VTTs, just yet.

Granted, my lifestyle is suited to the medium. Being a bit of a xenophobe, I don’t have a circle of friends I hang out with; I don’t hang out in taverns or socialize with the people I work with. I still get together, once a week, and chat online with childhood friends. Chat rooms comprise the majority of my social interactions, these days. For me to find a few hours each week to spend outside of my home would require a major lifestyle change.

Having asked my players about the prospects of a VTT, I’m fairly certain the ideal program does not exist, at this time. It would have to be free, cross-platform, and rock solid. As my current game has used a chat room for three years, there isn’t a great desire to add voice-chat or videoconferencing. A few of my players are less than enthusiastic about incorporating elements of social networking; Facebook, Twitter, and the like.

In short, for fifteen years I have been gaming electronically with luddites. ;)

To be fair, I’d prefer a VTT that worked on my iPad. To add videoconferencing I’d have to wait a couple of months until the iPads with cameras are released. Ideally the VTT would handle rulesets for 3.5e/d20/Pathfinder, movement in three dimensions, and be capable of handling odd characters from a hermit crab warlock to a spellstitched swarm-shifter dread necromancer emancipated spawn half-scrag sea kin lacedon with aboleth grafts.

Yeah, I’m going to be waiting a bit, I think. Until then, running games in chat rooms keeps my imagination fueled.
 

Online gaming just seems completely unappealing to me. If I didn't have real groups to game with, I'd just stop gaming.

To me,the only way to play is at a table, surrounded by my fellow humans. I'd rather eat glass than "game" online. It seems like the opposite of fun. Computers kill the mood. And if you can't hear the verbal inflections on what your fellow players are saying, and look them in the eye while you respond, you're missing all the good stuff.

I don't consider online RPGs to even be RPGs. If I'm having a conversation with people about RPGs (which happens a lot since I work at a game store) & they reveal that they play online only, then I kind of tune what they're saying out. I just smile and nod until I get a chance to politely disengage from the conversation. It's not that i want to be rude or anything, I just don't consider what they do to actually be gaming.
 

As much as I really enjoy gaming, hanging out in person with friends is just better in every way and the thing is it doesn't even matter if we get much gaming done or not.

Online tools are fantastic for times when a live group is just not possible. There are so many things that the virtual experience cannot provide:

-enjoying snacks together

- spontaneous jokes that turn into memories that last a lifetime. There is nothing quite as amusing as all the players looking at each other at the same time and bursting into the same song. :D

- facial expressions and gestures that add the kind of meaning that might be lost if a description of them had to be presented.

-throwing dice at the DM when he/she is being a tool. :p

-showing off awesome paintjobs on new minis.

- with regard to comedy, timing is everything.

- last but not least (for me personally) I am a slow typer and the essence of my sharp wit would be completely lost in an online game.:)
 

For me...

I do love gaming online with online friends. Those who dismiss the social experience of it neglect to pick up on the fact that humans are social animals, and we'll use ANY medium to interact socially. It does change the interaction subtly, even with voice, but it can be fun and rewarding. The online element helps to bring people together who are in different time zones, or halfway around the world, and I've gotten to meet some great people over VTT.

It's also cheaper on the accessories -- making a token in MapTool is a LOT easier than setting up a battle map and getting the proper tokens in real life. ;) This is probably why online is actually my PREFERRED method for 4e. If I'm going to need that much detail, I'm going to want some software to make it easy for me.

But actual face-to-face interaction is still my ideal. There's a preference for the actual interaction in me. The use of gestures and eye contact, the community atmosphere, the rituals that develop -- these are all still ideal.

But it's also a lot harder. When I started off playing 4e, people would commute 2 hours from the far-flung ends of Brooklyn and the Bronx into a living room or public space big enough to accommodate us. We had to allocate commuting time in addition to gaming time, and be hyper-conscious of scheduling and changing work times and holidays. The VTT doesn't entirely oblivate that, but there's NO commute time, and I can do it in my underpants, and re-scheduling is a piece of cake.

I'm starting to learn that there's give and take. Without the capability to find people willing to dedicate 6-8 hours on a consistent weekend evening for hanging out and talking like elves, the VTT is just fine. It has its benefits. It has its drawbacks. But since it's not high school anymore, so does real life.
 

Interesting stuff.

I think what I'm mostly taking away from this is that for some people "game night" is not just game night - it's a part of their regular socialization with friends. That makes sense. If you view gaming as a social outlet with your friends, then, sure, VTT play with a bunch of people you're never likely to meet would not seem a very appealing alternative.

Funny about different experiences. I haven't gamed with regular everyday friends since college. For me, enjoying D&D has more often than not, been with other gamers that I've met through gaming, not the other way around.
 

I always prefer in-person games. For the group I'm with, the role playing is actually better in person because the players are interested in role playing. So, things like facial expressions or simple posture can be used as part of that experience. With a VTT, that is lost.

The VTTs seem to require a lot more physical prep work than an in-person game. I'm the type of DM that doesn't prepare much of anything. I have a general idea of where I want the game to go and I make up 95% of it on the fly (one of the reasons my players like me; I'm extremely flexible).

I also haven't found a VTT that I feel comfortable with that lets me map on the fly like I can with a wet-erase mat. I own a copy of FantasyGrounds, but that requires that you create maps using an external graphics tool and the in-game drawing tools are extremely crude. I tried MapTools a long time ago, maybe I should give it a go again... I tried OpenRPG and found it confusing and very unstable.

That's another thing about VTTs. Technical issues. If someone isn't computer savvy then there can be delays in starting the game or playing at all.

Plus, there's the part of physically being there and hanging out and having delicious beer (Belgian, German, and Microbrew ONLY at my table!) and some good food.
 

I've been running a VTT 4e game since it came out, and before that, a bunch of us played in a VTT sendoff game for 3e. I play with friends, even if they're mostly internet friends, they're still friends and we still socialise and tell jokes and everything. We don't use skype, but we tend to RP a lot using text. We've got a novel worth of logs from the game, featuring the adventures of a cast of pcs that started with 6 and grew to two teams of five, not to mention a lot of oneshots set in the same setting. And yeah, there's plenty of facial expressions and moods and so fourth going on in those logs. They read like a novel- albet it a novel with over a dozen authors. But that's part of what makes rpgs so interesting.

There's plentty of jokes cracked in the chat as well, to the point where, about a year in when one of the players revealed a dramtic dark secret about their pc's past in a huge plot-twisty scene, another of the players thought he was joking. He actually typed "ahahahahaha, good one, as if your kindly old wizard could really be the notorious warlock jack of chains, ok so what really happens?" And everybody had to explain to him that yes, the old wizard the party had been taking for granted apparently really was a former evil warlock, as revealed by a magical heresy-detecting lantern that the PC has been subtly dodging for half the campaign.

In the players defence, we often joke around in the game, although not usuaully to that degree. I was a bit chagrined at the time, but the twist was suitably jaw-dropping, and had the desired impact all the same- and it's certainly one of those unique moments that make rpgs what they are, just as much as those moments can emerge in person. The roleplaying in the game is also top-notch, although it helps to have a great population of players to draw from. A population I would not have were I to look in my local area.

It's all well and good to talk about your ideal game, but nobody has an ideal game. There's always a trade-off, at least for those of us who are making new games with new people instead of playing the same old game with the same old people on our basement. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's quite presumptuous to act as if that's the be-all and end-all of the hobby, or that a given VTT game can't be a match for a given live game.

Each game is it's own creature, with it's own qualities. What people should be after is a good game, and they should not assume that this feature or that medium is always going to make for a better or worse game. Each game is unique, and the quality of a game is a combination of all sorts of factors, that collide in a far more complex fashion than 'offline better than online' or 'this genre is better than that genre'. Certainly, judgement calls can be made, system being an obvious example, but each of those factors also depends on the situation at hand.

Frankly, for most people, the main factor is not finding the right systerm, or medium, or setting, but the right people. And it's often very hard to do that locally. Playing with friends is fine, I do it myself, but which friends? Are they all friends? A game can be a great way to meet new friends. Either way, people to game with can be hard to find, and being able to look anywhere in the english speaking world, time zone permitting, is a very powerful recruitment tool.

Games come down to the people you play them with, the time you have, the play you get into- and so on and so on, and it's unwise to say the least to assume you're going to have less fun with an online game when for all you know, that might be the group of people, and the campaign, and various other factors, that gives you the best game you'll ever play.
 
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Fascinating thread. Given that my handle is OnlineDM and I write a blog about playing D&D online, I guess I'm fine with that form of gaming!

I play in a few regular campaigns. One is an in-person campaign with my wife and our friends. It's fun. We sit around the table, have snacks, hang out and play some D&D.

The second is Living Forgotten Realms. This is a series of one-shots with varying groups of players and DMs at the local store. Also fun, though more hit-or-miss, and you don't get the ongoing campaign experience.

The third will probably turn into an ongoing campaign, and that one is with family. My wife's brother and his wife visited over the holidays and learned D&D - and loved it. We just got together using MapTool and Skype last night to continue our campaign (since they're back home three states away now), and they're totally enthusiastic about it.

The fourth is my longest-running campaign, and that's my Friday night online game using MapTool and Skype. That game started with people looking for a game right here in the EN World forums, and it's a group of strangers who have become friends. We've been playing together most Fridays since last August and have gone from level 1 to level 8 now. The level of fun and role playing in this game is actually higher than in most of my face to face games.

In the end, I think it's all about the people. If you have good people to play with, whether in-person or online, you're going to have fun. True, you don't get to do as much hanging out online and you miss out on facial expressions and gestures, but voice chat does go a long way to help with the connection between human beings.

Would I have more fun if I were sitting in a room with my online players, face to face? Quite possibly, yes. But since I'm in Colorado and they're in California, South Dakota, Indiana, Virginia and England (soon to be Japan) that's not going to happen. I'd much rather play with these folks in an online game than not at all - it's a fun group.

For me, an online game is not second class. The online program is just a means to an end - gaming with good people.

And to the comment about looking for a program that's rock-solid, cross-platform and free, I highly, HIGHLY recommend MapTool.
 

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