Why is Online Gaming considered Second Class?

[Haltherrion]

I thought you were going to plug MMORGs but they are more 3rd class anyway (although I have had my fun with them).

I dunno. I wouldn't consider what you describe second class. Sounds pretty fun to me and if I didn't have a nice face to face group of long time friends, might be a very nice change.

 

[WizarDru]

People aren't making an excuse. They can't do it. You can speculate, but you're wrong. They can't form a group. Can't. They can't take time off work, they can't spend money they don't have on a sitter. Can't. They tried to form a group or a club and it didn't work. They can't.

I didn't say they were making an excuse, I said they were setting their priorities. And there's nothing wrong with that. But many times, when I hear people say they can't game, what we often discover is that they haven't really tried that hard or that they decide that they don't want to invest a degree of time or effort required. If your point was that they can't manage a weekly game...well, I agree. But I was referring to gaming at all (hence my points about conventions, groups, etc.)

I have two kids. I was unemployed for a solid year. I have friends who are currently in the same situation that I once was. I have had an invalid parent, I work long hours. I understand these challenges and I'm not saying that they are simply overcome by pluck. But I AM saying that many people decide that gaming is not important enough to make that effort or that the enjoyment they derive from gaming isn't worth the effort they would require to invest to attain it. I have encountered people who don't want to admit that that is the case.

My aforementioned unemployed friends with two kids? They still find time to game. Not as often as they'd like...but they do. One runs games himself...and he manages to get new gaming materials occasionally by working for a website that offers him RPG products as payment. They attend the local library and started a gaming program where there wasn't one. They purchase games from thrift and second-hand stores (yes, euro board games and RPGs can be found at at such places). They borrow from friends.

When my kids were little, we worked the game around them. My friends watched their language until the kids were asleep. We only gamed on Friday or Saturday night. They understood the game would be prone to frequent interruptions while we occasionally had to tend to the kids. When they got older, we included them or didn't exclude them. We worked out elaborate scheduling to allow us to work other hobbies, family and work to co-exist with gaming. It required a lot of effort. I can understand if people say: "I tried. It's just not possible." But I've encountered a lot of gamers who didn't even realize all the options they had.

That was why I posted those links above. Those came from five minutes of google. I understand Hussar's and your points. Mine was that many people underestimate how many resources are at their fingertips. Those unemployed friends of mine? They've managed to attend Origins plenty of times, even with virtually no money. How? Volunteering to run events (usually 6 of them), wise use of money and time, hooking up with charitable friends, careful budgeting and so forth. A weekly game might be impossible...but gaming once a quarter or even once a month? That should be much more doable.

Now, whether that is worth the effort or not is a personal decision. The beauty of programs like OpenRPG is that it can fill that need for far less effort or output. That's one reason why it's as popular as it is (as are similar programs). There may come a time when these online solutions equal the FTF experience...but for me, they're not there yet.

 

[prosfilaes]

That's a really dodgy type of logic. I can't go to disneyland every week. Sure, I could do it, but it would bankrupt me. Hence, I can't go.

But there's no reason you can't. Get a job and home close enough to Disneyland that driving there is no big deal, and annual admission is only $460. Maybe it's not worth it to you to do that, but I'm sure there's people who have done it. It just depends on how important it is to you.

 

[Zhaleskra]

I have a lot of trouble maintaining interest in an online game. Especially if I'm running a module. More so when the module has mechanical mistakes.

In person, I have to fix those mistakes . . . once.

Online, I have to fix them every time they come up.

 

[Steel_Wind]

It is interesting that the default premise of “online” game means VTT. I certainly used to think so as well, but as matters have turned out – this need not be the case.

Both of my gaming groups have mow switched to a hybrid face-to-face + remote playing experience and it was worked out extremely well for us. Moreover, the nature of the relationship I have with my gaming buddies has made the transition to online play seamlessly. So while I appreciate the comments that DannyAlcatraz has made in terms of social interaction is highly germane – that doesn’t mean you can’t have it during an online game. And it doesn’t mean you have to use a VTT to play online, too.

As a consequence of having to run a game with the podcast hosts for our Chronicles: Pathfinder Podcast, we looked at ways to bring remote players to the table at the same time as three other players + the GM were participating in an ordinary face-to-face game for Kingmaker. We added Skype video and multiple cameras with picture-in-picture displays so we can see all the other players at the table, the other remote players, and the battlemat and minis – all at the same time on our screens.

We’ve got this technological approach refined now. Due to the addition of a player and the recent move from one of the players from San Fran to Washington State, we now have four players playing remotely and only one GM and two players playing face-to-face at the table.

Using a combination of Skype video and Justin TV – this has proved to be quite easy to do. In fact, we then used the same method to have me attend at my local game, too. My local group is on the other side of the city (Toronto) and it’s a mullti-hour commute for me to get there. Attending via Skype video conferencing has been exactly the same as my being there. The only real difference in terms of social interaction is that I’m not chipping in $5 for pizza and instead order my own pizza here and share it with the rest of my family. Because there is no downtime in travel involved, and because it is so damned convenient to just throw up Skype video -- I must confess that I have come to prefer it over attending face-to-face because the hassle of the commute is so significant for me.

Yes, you need some equipment to pull this off. You need a good bandwidth connection, preferably hard-wired. You want a couple of 720p Microsoft cams at the game table and a great omni-directional microphone to pick up everybody’s voice in the room. A Blue Snowball or Yeti USB microphone is ideal which we had already for podcast recording. At the bigger game where we use Justin TV as well (we use it for another video channel for the main battlemat), we also have ab audio mixer in use to balance out sound levels streaming to Justin so people watching the sessions have an easier listening experience.

So yes, this is AV equipment that most of you probably don’t have. But adding it isn’t all THAT expensive. The overall resulting game experience is exactly the same as being there in person. No VTT stuff getting in the way of the game experience – or the social experience -- at all.

The downside is that Skype multi-conference video is now starting to charge as of this month, so that we will need to add at least one person with a $9 a month video conference account to keep this feed. While I appreciate this may sound quite complicated (and expensive) to many people here, the fact is, it is extremely doable and very achievable for anybody here to pull off. I have enjoyed the experience so much that I now actually have come to prefer it as it avoids all my travel and downtime (and the attendant cost of all that – which is actually pretty high for me).

Bottom line: Online need not mean VTT. It can mean bones, minis, battlemats and face-to-face video used to run the game for an experience that completely duplicates the game experience of being there.

 

[catastrophic]

But there's no reason you can't. Get a job and home close enough to Disneyland that driving there is no big deal, and annual admission is only $460. Maybe it's not worth it to you to do that, but I'm sure there's people who have done it. It just depends on how important it is to you.

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not, sufficed to say what you're talking about is a bizzare fantasy especially considering the unemployment rate in the US atm.

There are plenty of people who just plain can't find a group locally, playing semantics doesn't change that.

I have a lot of trouble maintaining interest in an online game. Especially if I'm running a module. More so when the module has mechanical mistakes.
In person, I have to fix those mistakes . . . once.
Online, I have to fix them every time they come up.

What on earth are you talking about? What kind of online game has a persistent database, yet one you can't edit?

What kind of VTT are you using that you have this problem, with 'modules' no less? Are you talking about nwn or nwn2 modules or something?

 

[Hussar]

I have a lot of trouble maintaining interest in an online game. Especially if I'm running a module. More so when the module has mechanical mistakes.

In person, I have to fix those mistakes . . . once.

Online, I have to fix them every time they come up.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to here.

If you change the text of a module, say, Keep on the Borderlands to pick an example, whyou would you need to change that every time?

 

[Zhaleskra]

I'm not really sure what you're referring to here.

If you change the text of a module, say, Keep on the Borderlands to pick an example, whyou would you need to change that every time?

I'm talking about stat and skill mistakes with NPCs. Maybe they happened because the NPCs were designed before the template added to them was fleshed out. Sure, I can write in my books, but I still need to remember those corrections every time they come up in PbP, for example.

Also, there was a random recurring guard meeting with slightly difficult spot check that the guards simply didn't have the ranks to make . . . ever . . . even with a natural 20. During this point of the module, the PCs will be dressed in uniforms similar to those of the guards. Why bother with the random encounter if the guard is NEVER going to succeed? Unless you're a certain race that just happens to have blue skin (and is much taller than 3 apples in height).

 

[Merkuri]

Zhaleskra, I'm still not sure why you'd have those problems in an online game and not an in-person one.

 

[prosfilaes]

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not, sufficed to say what you're talking about is a bizzare fantasy especially considering the unemployment rate in the US atm.

It's the bizarre fantasy you suggested. It's a bizarre fantasy that most people could, if they really wanted to, viably make real, even if it took them a couple years.

There are plenty of people who just plain can't find a group locally, playing semantics doesn't change that.

There's a distinctly limited number of people who absolutely can't find a group; if there's more than a couple handfuls in each metropolitan area, then the problem is in helping people find each other, not that there aren't people out there willing to play. Being clear on what the issue is is key to solving it.