Why Is the Cleric Unfun?

[Hussar]

Well, to each his own I guess.

I've played with way too many prima donna players who feel that they should always be the centre of attention to want to do that anymore. Yes, it's perfectly fine to do your own thing. BUT, when doing your own thing gets my character killed, don't expect me to be terribly happy with it.

If there are other options available, then great, do whatever you want, you're not screwing over the other people at the table. Me, I don't play in a vacuum and have no interest in playing with people who feel that screwing me over should take precedence.

Although, rereading your post, I'll 1000% agree with the following:

If in some game party efficiency (from the perspective of whatever class) or expectations thereof get into the way of roleplaying, than there's something fundamentally wrong with that game. Than you're sacrificing the goal for the instrument.

So, you're in agreement that the cleric needs to be changed and the mechanics of the class are fundamentally wrong.

 

[Wepwawet]

If in some game party efficiency (from the perspective of whatever class) or expectations thereof get into the way of roleplaying, than there's something fundamentally wrong with that game. Than you're sacrificing the goal for the instrument.

I agree. For me, fun and power gaming don't mix.
Just having someone powergaming makes the game unfun.

Edit: Obviously the party needs teamwork to beat the monsters, but I prefer deeper PC that can do different things other than what the stereotypical class does.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

QFT.

The fact is, as soon as the party sees you playing a cleric, the *expect* to be healed. And, even worse, some players get annoyed when you'd rather cast an offensive spell than cast a cure on them, even if your spell can win the combat.

They don't even have to get annoyed by you not healing a spell. It can be worse - their character can die or be taken out of the fight too early. This sucks for the player, who can't do anything in the combat, and for the party, because things probably got just a lot harder.

It is nice that it's easy for the Cleric to heal his allies. But it's not so nice that he is the only one really effective at it - especially in combat, where actions are the most valuable resource!
Druids - get delayed access, and have no feats that can improve in-combat healing.
Bards - get lower level spells and not much of them anyway.
Paladins - only low level spells, and some Lay on Hands.
Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Sorceror, Wizard - they can't do anything to heal themselves effectively.


Wands of Cure Light Wounds are only there to delay the time till you retreat to recover spells, but they are next to useless during combats.

 

[Hussar]

I agree. For me, fun and power gaming don't mix.
Just having someone powergaming makes the game unfun.

Buh? What does this have to do with the subject? How is Cleric=Healbot even remotely related to power gaming issues?

 

[Zweischneid]

So, you're in agreement that the cleric needs to be changed and the mechanics of the class are fundamentally wrong.

Yessir!

I'm not very good at tweaking mechanics admittadly, but mechanics IMO ultimately serve the purpose to solve the dilemma of "individual fun" impeaching upon "group fun" or vice versa that you've also described above.

If, you'd play the perfect game that would make everybody perfectly happy without any rules at all, there obviously wouldn't be any rules at all.
Unfortunately, at some point, there always comes to point of "You're dead!" "No, I am not". hence, you need rules to accomodate disputes and set a framework within everyone can have equally fun.

But when you reach a point where those rules force somebody to do something "unfun" in the name of "group-fun", you've overshoot the target, you've lost the whole point of getting together (with or without rules) in the first place.

So yes, good mechanics should not force me into a trade-off between "my fun" and "your fun", but should provide incentives so that "my fun" also brings the most benefit to you and the group as a whole.

With, say a rogue, say, this overlap works reasonably well IMO.
If my rogue is successfully sneaking around, stealing shiny things, disarm lethal traps, etc.., than I'm likely also contributing to the fun and success of the group as well. If my rogue gets constantly caught and arrested, springs traps and generally fails his job than I'm sooner or later also tarnishing the fun of the group as a whole.
(The question of whether the rogue is mechanically sound to be a contribution to the group might be another issue, but the underlying concept in the case of a rogue is fine IMO).

With a Cleric, this congruence of what I am aiming for and what the group is aiming for doesn't (always) work so well. So you have a problem.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Wepwawet]

Buh? What does this have to do with the subject? How is Cleric=Healbot even remotely related to power gaming issues?

Ok, maybe powergaming was not the best word for it
I just mean that any PC that has to be doing the same things every combat, makes it unfun... If you're into it, maxing some ability to be the [whatever]bot in the party, it's your concept and have fun with it.
The problem is if the other characters or the game make you take that role, so that everyone fills a speciffic spot in the party. I like when everyone is has some independence and can do a bit on his own.
I've had a Cleric specialized in healing and burning undead. It would be fun. Except there was a powergamer in the group that didn't leave much room for the others to do much stuff.
Probably it all just comes to individual playing styles. There's always people whom it's harder to play with.
Edit: I'm sorry if I don't make much sense. I'm sick today

 

[Driddle]

The more often we see posted assumptions that the cleric is "unfun" or can be played in only one way, the more likely people will believe it.

Clerics are fine. It's the other players that suck.

 

[Hussar]

I just mean that any PC that has to be doing the same things every combat, makes it unfun...

Heh, good argument for changing the fighter too.

The problem is if the other characters or the game make you take that role, so that everyone fills a speciffic spot in the party. I like when everyone is has some independence and can do a bit on his own.

Oh, fair enough. Drawing the short straw and having to play the cleric isn't exactly the best time for anyone. And, "a bit on his own" is perfectly fine too. On the other end of the scale is, "all on his own" which makes me question why the PC is with a group in the first place.

The fundamental problem is that clerics can do something that no one else can - heal. And, healing is fundamental to play. You don't get healed=you can't adventure.

So, something's gotta go. From the sounds of it, a lot of classes are going to be able to heal, sometimes without giving up actions, and there will be mechanics for self healing. Sounds like a pretty good solution to me.

Clerics are one of my favourite classes. But, that's despite the healing powers, not because of them.

 

[Zweischneid]

Clerics are fine. It's the other players that suck.

Yes, but it's the (bad) mechanics underlying the game that make other players suck with regards to the cleric. Or at the very least, it is within the possibilites of good game design to change peoples expectation within/towards the game to take that suck off the cleric.

If you have brilliant players, you can have loads of fun with most anything, including tons of broken rules and badly concieved classes. But thats hardly the point of this thread.

Game rules should provide the right incentives even for sub-par players (or players with different priorities), not assume general game-enlightment all around. Rules should be what I can fall back on when there are disputes and disagreements, not something I have to work up to (or around) with player education.

 

[Driddle]

If you have brilliant players, you can have loads of fun with most anything, including tons of broken rules and badly concieved classes. But thats hardly the point of this thread.

To remind, the point of this thread:

Cleric is one of those classes apparently considered 'unfun' to play. The most cited reason for this appears to be the fact that he often spends a lot of actions on healing his companions. Why, though, is healing considered unfun? ... I don't find it any more boring than hacking at an opponent, the prime occupation of classes such as the barbarian - why do other people find it so boring?

Back to your comments:

It's the (bad) mechanics underlying the game that make other players suck with regards to the cleric. Or at the very least, it is within the possibilites of good game design to change peoples expectation within/towards the game to take that suck off the cleric. ...

Game rules should provide the right incentives even for sub-par players (or players with different priorities), not assume general game-enlightment all around. Rules should be what I can fall back on when there are disputes and disagreements, not something I have to work up to (or around) with player education.

The rules are flexible enough to provide plenty of possibilities. It's the players who bluntly assume a particular role that screw things up and make the cleric class "unfun."