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D&D 5E Why is There No Warlord Equivalent in 5E?

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
You don't like playing a Monk and you don't like using Ki for a defensive option when you do, but that doesn't make it wrong or stupid, especially when the players who use these "stupid" design elements are the ones who also have fun with the class.

This "advance the game state" crap is a bunch of nonsense. Options that make the game more enjoyable are what matters, not theory crafting about what advances the game, especially when that theorycrafting is not backed up by any mathematics.

As an aside, Armor on a fighter is a defensive option, so I guess your Fighters all go naked since wearing armor doesn't "advance the game state".
A game should not be making you choose between doing the things that are fun to play and doing the things that are rewarded by the game's fundamental mechanics.

Doing the fun things should be the same thing as doing the stuff the game rewards you for doing. That is the essence of good game design: making it so that people who want to play well and people who want to have fun choose to do the same things.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Magic is scientifically natural in a world where magic actually exists. That is literally what wizards are: thaumatologists, scientists studying the field of arcane energy transfer. This distinction of science vs mysticism is only meaningful to you and I because we live in the modern era, defined by the Empirical Project and its rejection of non-empirical explanations of phenomena. Magic empirically exists to these people, so there is no division between phenomena that can be empirically explained and phenomena that can't. The space of "things with empirical explanations" is just bigger because the supernatural is empirically verifiable.

Things which exceed what is possible on our physical Earth can be purely physical phenomena in a world where dragons are real and utterly ordinary humans can fall 30 stories and walk it off consistently. (If you have over 100 HP, you are effectively guaranteed to survive any fall of 200+ feet...once a day, anyway. A Fighter can achieve this by level 11ish, with decent Con.)
So there's no such thing as nonmagic. I delegate you to be the one who tells all the mundane fighter fans that their character concept doesn't exist. You can also call Hollywood and let all the makers of fantasy stories where some characters lack superpowers that those characters don't exist either.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
So there's no such thing as nonmagic. I delegate you to be the one who tells all the mundane fighter fans that their character concept doesn't exist. You can also call Hollywood and let all the makers of fantasy stories where some characters lack superpowers that those characters don't exist either.
That's not what I said.

My point was, and remains, the enforced double standard. Anything so-called "nonmagic" is exclusively held to standards far below those actually achievable by real-world Olympian athletes. Yet "magic" is allowed to do LITERALLY ANYTHING AT ALL.

Unless and until we recognize that "nonmagic" in a fantasy universe is fundamentally different from "nonmagic" in our universe where magic simply IS NOT REAL AND DOES NOT EXIST, we will continue to have these problems. Because the artificially-enforced double standard remains: X thing is never allowed to be anything except a weak, feeble subset of what is actually possible IRL, while Y thing is allowed to be anything at all.
 

Pauln6

Hero
Characters should not have to take feats in order to get their basic subclass competency.

Imagine if Wizards had to take feats in order to actually get their subclass features. People would riot.
This is very true. This is just a pale imitation warlord and a very specific trope but at least it's one that is achievable with a Tasha-style minimal tweak alternate class feature. The changes to the fighter, giving them more uses of second wind might help the Banneret here as well.

Other possible changes could be to give them the martial versatility fighting style for free at level 3 but with a set of choices limited to the warlord type manoeuvres. Then later you could let them recharge their manoeuvres when they use second wind, which might make up for the limitations on their healing ability.

It's tricky to improve the Banneret without stealing too many of the Battlemaster's toys but I don't think the warlord style manoeuvres are among the more popular ones, so the limited list may be a balancing factor along with 1d6 dice. There are a lot of potential manoeuvres missing from the fighter list mind you.
 

Staffan

Legend
I mean, I think we are mistaking specific mechanics for general function.

The ability to heal in different ways could be represented through temp hitpoints, allowing people to use Hit Dice to heal, or a bunch of other things. I mean, we don't think clerics couldn't work because they used healing surges in 4E and now they're gone, do we? Did we have to get rid of Healing Word for this reason? This feels absurd on its face.
Healing Word in 5e is very different from how it was in 4e. In 4e, it would always heal a significant amount of hp (25% plus 1d6 per 5 levels, rounded up), and the main limit was the recipient's HD. In 5e, it heals for a piddly amount and is a leveled spell, meaning it's a daily resource that competes against cure wounds for spell slots.

But the main difference there is that the cleric had the old design to fall back on. The 5e cleric doesn't work like a 4e cleric, but it does work like an AD&D/3e cleric. There is no such old design for the Warlord.
Allowing people to move around needs a grid as much as a fireball does, and if you'll fudge distance for a fireball then you can fudge it for someone switching situation; you just have to describe it. They both carry the same problems when it comes to gridless play and will live and die by how the GM works it. I don't see this as a reason that stops a 5E Warlord.

Granular modifiers might be something, but then again with a lack of them, maybe that could be the class's gimmick? But there are a bunch of ways to represent better tactics, whether it be adding or rerolling damage, putting specific limiters on enemies, etc. You can have it, you just have to engage with what the system gives you. Every class used to have different bonuses and give out bonuses: we didn't suddenly lose every buff or debuff in the system, we just found different ways to use them within the system.
Both the tactical grid and granular modifiers are a consequence of 4e being a game of inches and 5e being one of miles. For example, one of the 4e Warlord's at-will powers allowed an ally adjacent to either themselves or to the target to shift 1 square before the attack. This made it pretty likely to turn on flanking giving combat advantage (+2 to hit and activating certain abilities, notably the rogue's Sneak Attack). Another neat thing is that it was a shift, meaning it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. But 5e doesn't have flanking (except as an optional rule), sneak attack is activated just by having an ally next to the target, and handing out advantage is about twice as powerful as a +2 to hit. Oh, and circling around someone doesn't provoke either anymore. So a "shift 1 square" power works great in 4e, but it has nowhere near the same impact in 5e.

That's just one example of how the bread and butter of warlording in 4e doesn't translate well at all to 5e.
 

Staffan

Legend
This is very true. This is just a pale imitation warlord and a very specific trope but at least it's one that is achievable with a Tasha-style minimal tweak alternate class feature. The changes to the fighter, giving them more uses of second wind might help the Banneret here as well.
Thing is, those of us who want Warlords don't want "a pale imitation warlord". We want the real deal. We want a steak, and you're offering us a Baby Bel cheese and saying "Well, it has protein in it, doesn't it?"
 

ECMO3

Hero
A game should not be making you choose between doing the things that are fun to play and doing the things that are rewarded by the game's fundamental mechanics.

Doing the fun things should be the same thing as doing the stuff the game rewards you for doing. That is the essence of good game design: making it so that people who want to play well and people who want to have fun choose to do the same things.

Patient Defense is effective mechanically. I can't help that others don't think it is fun.

At low levels Barbarian Range is very effective mechanically, so is Druid Wildshape. I don't find either of those things particularly fun ... should they be banned or gotten rid of because they are not fun for me? Or alternatively Should Barbarians be given spells so I personally would find the class more fun?
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
That's not what I said.

My point was, and remains, the enforced double standard. Anything so-called "nonmagic" is exclusively held to standards far below those actually achievable by real-world Olympian athletes. Yet "magic" is allowed to do LITERALLY ANYTHING AT ALL.

Unless and until we recognize that "nonmagic" in a fantasy universe is fundamentally different from "nonmagic" in our universe where magic simply IS NOT REAL AND DOES NOT EXIST, we will continue to have these problems. Because the artificially-enforced double standard remains: X thing is never allowed to be anything except a weak, feeble subset of what is actually possible IRL, while Y thing is allowed to be anything at all.
First of all, I support raising the standard of what counts as nonmagic to the level of actual reality; it certainly shouldn't be below that, and if it is the rules should be changed.

That being said, once a fair line is established I think we should go back to something resembling the 3e divisions. My proposal is mundane (for stuff that can be done without any kind of supernatural aid), supernatural (for stuff that does require superhuman ability by real life standards to be possible), and magical (spells). Only the magical stuff is subject to things like antimagic and counterspells.

These would be, like in 3e, game divisions that exist for the benefit of the players of the game, not the characters, who in all likelihood would have different perspectives on what counts as "magical". But the line for the game should still be what can and can't be done in real life, since as humans in real life that is the only perspective we have.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
First of all, I support raising the standard of what counts as nonmagic to the level of actual reality; it certainly shouldn't be below that, and if it is the rules should be changed.

That being said, once a fair line is established I think we should go back to something resembling the 3e divisions. My proposal is mundane (for stuff that can be done without any kind of supernatural aid), supernatural (for stuff that does require superhuman ability by real life standards to be possible), and magical (spells). Only the magical stuff is subject to things like antimagic and counterspells.

These would be, like in 3e, game divisions that exist for the benefit of the players of the game, not the characters, who in all likelihood would have different perspectives on what counts as "magical". But the line for the game should still be what can and can't be done in real life, since as humans in real life that is the only perspective we have.
But if these labels only exist for the players, meaning they are almost entirely non-diegetic, why would it be the case that martial skills absolutely never involve anything that is Earth-supernatural but fictionland-natural?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Patient Defense is effective mechanically. I can't help that others don't think it is fun.
I wasn't talking about Patient Defense. I was talking about the use of rules-aesthetics, like "well if it would be necessarily supernatural IRL, then it must be magic diegetically, and thus absolutely forbidden to characters who don't diegetically practice magic," to justify rules design that punishes people who like martial archetypes and rewards people who like magical archetypes. I was talking about things like demanding absolute rules symmetry between PCs and NPCs, which is a purely aesthetic decision, even though PCs and NPCs serve fundamentally different functions and, as a general rule, PCs do not see nor use numerous NPC rules.

At low levels Barbarian Range is very effective mechanically, so is Druid Wildshape. I don't find either of those things particularly fun ... should they be banned or gotten rid of because they are not fun for me? Or alternatively Should Barbarians be given spells so I personally would find the class more fun?
Again: irrelevant. I was not talking about ensuring that every single mechanic is fun for every single player, because that's an obvious strawman position. Frankly, it's so idiotic, it's a bit insulting you'd ascribe it to me.

I was talking about how the aesthetic values of a comparative minority of players are used to dictate what ALL players are ALLOWED to enjoy.
 

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