why not getting rid of coup de grace?

[ZappoHisbane]

In general I like the CdG rules as they stand. I've had a party or two ambushed in the night (either there was no watch, or the watch was ineffective), and CdGs have never killed a PC. All it takes is one person to make their listen check or something, and you still have a tense situation that isn't a TPK because the wiz forgot to cast Alarm.

I think that perhaps the only thing I'd change is making it take 1 round, as opposed to a full-round action. That way any allies of the target have a full initiative round to realize what's happening and do something about it, and it gives the target itself one more chance to wake up or make their save against hold person (don't forget that 3.5 requires a save each round). If blows get landed on the attacker, a concentration check would be in order. Pretty much just like casting a summoning spell (or sleep for that matter).

 

[0bsolete]

I've implemented my own CdG rules back in AD&D after a player had a thug go behind him with a dagger at his throat to "convince" him to accompany him back to the BBEG's hideout to have a chat and wait until the BBEG arrived in a week (of course then the party would escape and the adventure would start) but the player just laughed and said "I pull out of his grasp, I can handle a D4 of damage." I put the player at -1 hp and bleeding. But this is my rule in regards to CdG. If your in combat, you get an autocrit just because its a bit harder to concentrate. If its out of combat or there are no distractions, you slit that nice little artery that runs oxygen to the brain and they gurgle a bit in protest before dying or you smash their skull in or whatever.

There are many squishy places in which you can insert some steel, blunt or sharp, and cause a death that is nearly immediate or at least close enough. Sure a rogue might be able to get a dagger to meet your kidney or get his mace to your stomach but pretty much anybody can slit a throat or smash in a skull.

 

[Li Shenron]

If you cut the carotis arteries the victim will have ten seconds before passing out and during those ten seconds it's not like you can do something constructive.

If he can quaff a healing potion, it may be enough.

 

[Ahglock]

I would want CDG to stay but I also can see additional limits being added.

Such as:
1. Performing a CDG is a full round action during which you lose your Dex bonus while you are concentrating on your foe.
Here sure its just as lethal but trying to do one can open you up to a world of pain in the middle of combat.
2. As mentioned earlier in this thread it brings you to -1HP not -10.
3. Full round action attack taking any damage interrupts the attack.

 

[frankthedm]

3. Full round action attack taking any damage interrupts the attack.

I think you mean "One full round" as spells such as summon monster that you begin casting on your turn, then finish right before your next action begins.

IMHO slaying the helpless should not be too hard. The problem is low level spells should rarly allow for victims to be placed in CDG situations unless the effect is limited to low level victims. The 5% chance of being boned by a Hold Person means even high level characters can get CDG'ed by 3rd level cleric's allies.

Heck, with Hold's Save every round, it encourages, if not necessitates having an ally CDG the victim ASAP. The caster spent an action to remove the target from the fight, but they got a save. Now either an ally 5’ steps up and CDG’s them or the caster’s team risks the hold effect getting wasted in a one action for one round trade off.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I disagree about the disbelieving! You cannot instantly kill someone by slitting his throat.

You can insta-kill someone with an axe big blow (or even a mace), but to me the CdG's automatic critical would be enough, and a better way than the added save-or-die.

I'm not a medical expert, but I simply assume that using a razorsharp steel blade to carve a 2-4'' deep groove into the throat of somebody from "one ear to the other", as they say, on a paralyzed person will kill that person pretty much immediately. The same goes for a steel blade through the eye to the brain, a well-placed stab through the heart, or any other nasty ideas players tend to have when they haven't yet been trained to think in hit points and damage rolls.
Of course, an axe through the skull works just as nicely.

Sure, but sounds to me like "CdG doesn't break Hold Person, if you don't use Hold Person"

Hold Person isn't broken by coup de grace, it simply enables it. There is something broken if players coup de grace every opponent they happen upon and manage to render helpless, but I'm pretty sure it's not the fact that a helpless opponent can be insta-killed.

Just please, don't start to argue for a reduction of this mechanic to hit point damage as well. I'd hate to read "A coup de grace is a critical hit with a multiplier of x100" or something in the 4E PHB at some point.

 

[hong]

I always found it funny that an average Str 10 joe with a dagger causes an average DC 15 save for a CdG. A 10th level tank could make that on a 2.

 

[med stud]

I'm not a medical expert, but I simply assume that using a razorsharp steel blade to carve a 2-4'' deep groove into the throat of somebody from "one ear to the other", as they say, on a paralyzed person will kill that person pretty much immediately. The same goes for a steel blade through the eye to the brain, a well-placed stab through the heart, or any other nasty ideas players tend to have when they haven't yet been trained to think in hit points and damage rolls.
Of course, an axe through the skull works just as nicely.

Like I stated above, ten seconds without blood to the brain and you pass out. Cutting through human tissue is frightenly easy. The first time I participated in an autopsy I was surprised how easy it was to penetrate skin with a knife; not any razor sharp super scalpel either, it was a standard issue IKEA kitchen knife.

Destruction of the brain is faster than 10 seconds of course. The problem with the cut throat or destroyed heart is that you have about 2-3 minutes to restore blood flow before permanent brain damage starts happening and that is a very, very short time to sew back the blood vessels and pharynx or to replace the heart. IRL I'd say that it is impossible or close to impossible but magical healing can turn that around.

*EDIT* Answer to Li Shenron about drinking a potion of healing: If you are CdG:d you most probably is in a position where you can't drink the potion (paralyzed or being woke up by the CdG). I think that situation is more if you have the Die Hard feat and use your standard action to quaff the potion; the feat makes it possible for you to pull together during the immense stress put upon you by an injury that will kill you within a minute.

 

[med stud]

I always found it funny that an average Str 10 joe with a dagger causes an average DC 15 save for a CdG. A 10th level tank could make that on a 2.

You'd be surprised (I was any way) if you saw how many people that survives getting their throats cut. Luckily most people dont appriciate how deep the arteries lie in the neck so they cut too shallow. That's probably what mr Average Joe is doing with his CdG (which is enough to kill in 75% of the cases he does it to lvl 1 commoners).

 

[howandwhy99]

Hi.

I think CdG has been mentioned already a couple of times, so i am pretty sure it's in 4e, although it could be changed.

But in 3e it was IMHO the source of several problem. It turned many spells into save-or-die. Sleep for example, or Hold Person, they weren't broken until the players figured out to follow them with CdG. The spells were fine themselves, but CdG broke them.

Why is CdG needed so much in the game? If it's for realism, the game has lots of unrealistic simplifications, why insisting on this one?
Is the purpose of Cdg to allow a realistic rendition of assassination? But in most cases an Npc can be murdered in 1 blow anyway by an assassin. A Pc of mid-high level cannot, but the scenario of having you killed in your sleep because of 1 missed save or die is once again something that many gamers hate.

Because if they didn't include it you would just stick your sleeping enemies heads underwater. 1,2,3 rounds their dead.

EDIT: Not to mention you can tie a sleeping character up and then they become "helpless". Helpless = dead, if I so will in D&D. You may not like the possibility of easy death, but it helps PCs as much as it does NPCs.