Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?
- Thread starter Deekin
- Start date
Certainly IMHO...
I thought when I first looked at 3.0 that Feats were the fighter's cool powers, seems as a significant majority of them were directly related to combat and combat rules. Then it seemed like feats got stolen from the fighter, and soon there were feats that made wizards and sorcerers just as good in melee, or feats that made druids or clerics better than the fighter at thwacking things.
3.5 seemed to bring the feats back to the fighter with PHB2 (as well as Comp Warrior, but that should be obvious).
It feels to me like this was part of the design philosophy of 3.0 that just ended up falling by the wayside when feats could become such a huge way to give any character a way to break, defy, or bend the rules in this way or that. I'm not sayings feats are broken, or any specific type of feats are, but, as a whole, a lot of feats are a way for a character to do "something that you can't normally do" with what you have, whether it be a class, race, or other limitation.
Anyway, my point is: I think crazy cool maneuvers should continue to be feats. I don't think gravity-defying super-maneuvers should be feats in the Core Rules, but they are perfectly acceptable in some settings/genres. Martial characters should have access to cool manuevers -- whether or not they are gravity-defying super-maneuvers -- just like wizards have lots of spells and rogues have lots of skills and everybody else has their thing. Cool maneuvers could simply be the new versions of spring attack, or whirlwind strike, or whatever...they don't need to be supernatural to be cool (or effective).
Sorry for the rambling.
I thought when I first looked at 3.0 that Feats were the fighter's cool powers, seems as a significant majority of them were directly related to combat and combat rules. Then it seemed like feats got stolen from the fighter, and soon there were feats that made wizards and sorcerers just as good in melee, or feats that made druids or clerics better than the fighter at thwacking things.
3.5 seemed to bring the feats back to the fighter with PHB2 (as well as Comp Warrior, but that should be obvious).
It feels to me like this was part of the design philosophy of 3.0 that just ended up falling by the wayside when feats could become such a huge way to give any character a way to break, defy, or bend the rules in this way or that. I'm not sayings feats are broken, or any specific type of feats are, but, as a whole, a lot of feats are a way for a character to do "something that you can't normally do" with what you have, whether it be a class, race, or other limitation.
Anyway, my point is: I think crazy cool maneuvers should continue to be feats. I don't think gravity-defying super-maneuvers should be feats in the Core Rules, but they are perfectly acceptable in some settings/genres. Martial characters should have access to cool manuevers -- whether or not they are gravity-defying super-maneuvers -- just like wizards have lots of spells and rogues have lots of skills and everybody else has their thing. Cool maneuvers could simply be the new versions of spring attack, or whirlwind strike, or whatever...they don't need to be supernatural to be cool (or effective).
Sorry for the rambling.
Deekin said:
For the same reason that Batman doesn't fly without an airplane, and can't generally lift cars and throw them at people. And why not everyone in D&D is a magical elf....
If everyone has special, cool superhuman powers, then those powers... aren't special at all. Thanks, I played Earthdawn, and the fact that every single PC was highly magical with flagrant powers made all the powers mean less...
We need classes for those who don't want their characters to be magic-users in different clothing.
Amphimir Míriel
Explorer
Enter Martial Maneouvers
Indeed, we need to establish that "Fighters with powers" doesnt necessarily mean "anime magical girl shooting stars from a shiny sword".
How the heck are we supposed to believe that Conan "tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet," If a 10th level wizard can get rid of him with a wink???
We need martial maneouvers that, while remaining non-magical, can present a challenge to high level magic-using foes.
Oh, guess what? you can find examples of such maneouvers in The Book of Iron Might, by (who else) Mike Mearls!
In fact, if you implement the Combat Maneouvers (for Fighters, Rangers, Paladins and Monks) and the Combat Skill Uses (for Bards and Rogues), and simultaneously place some sensible restrictions on several spells in the SRD, you stop having to worry about the casters in the party using the meleers as servants.
Doug McCrae said:
Indeed, we need to establish that "Fighters with powers" doesnt necessarily mean "anime magical girl shooting stars from a shiny sword".
How the heck are we supposed to believe that Conan "tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet," If a 10th level wizard can get rid of him with a wink???
We need martial maneouvers that, while remaining non-magical, can present a challenge to high level magic-using foes.
Oh, guess what? you can find examples of such maneouvers in The Book of Iron Might, by (who else) Mike Mearls!
In fact, if you implement the Combat Maneouvers (for Fighters, Rangers, Paladins and Monks) and the Combat Skill Uses (for Bards and Rogues), and simultaneously place some sensible restrictions on several spells in the SRD, you stop having to worry about the casters in the party using the meleers as servants.
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Mercule
Adventurer
For me, it's a flavor thing. I'm under no illusions that any real person could do what a 20th level fighter could. But, when I play a sword-slinger, I want it to feel like a sword-slinger, not a spell-slinger. A fighter 20 should be a fighter++, not a fighter/wizard. The moves may be exaggerated, but they should still be recognizable as extensions of what he was doing at 1st level.
That means that the +6d6 damage that penetrates DR is fine, but +2d6 damage from summoned flame on the sword isn't. It's not a balance issue. The mega-strike damage is just a much more in-flavor with a fighter than is the flame-strike damage. Making a strong guy, inhumanly strong works, too. Making an improbably jump is one thing, but the fairy-prancing in Crouching Tiger-like movies isn't the image I want coupled with my dwarves.
I guess, if I could pick a mental image for high-level martial characters, it would be "300". I may be missing something, but I don't recall any flaming weapons or fairy-prancing. There were a lot of extremely unlikely defenses, attacks, and feats of endurance, though. That's the feel I want from my epic fighters.
I'm okay with a ninja-like class (i.e. swordsage) or a crusader who channels faith into martial prowess. I just also want the option of having my Leonidas as formidable.
As an aside, I really hope the ranger ends up a martial class. Removing the ranger spells and replacing them with some appropriately extraordinary and/or supernatural (to use the 3E classification) maneuvers that replicate them would be much better, flavor-wise. I'm thinking Shadow Hand with nature instead of shadows. That might even get me to buy into a ranger with d8 hit dice and/or medium BAB (I'd still prefer d10 HD, though).
That means that the +6d6 damage that penetrates DR is fine, but +2d6 damage from summoned flame on the sword isn't. It's not a balance issue. The mega-strike damage is just a much more in-flavor with a fighter than is the flame-strike damage. Making a strong guy, inhumanly strong works, too. Making an improbably jump is one thing, but the fairy-prancing in Crouching Tiger-like movies isn't the image I want coupled with my dwarves.
I guess, if I could pick a mental image for high-level martial characters, it would be "300". I may be missing something, but I don't recall any flaming weapons or fairy-prancing. There were a lot of extremely unlikely defenses, attacks, and feats of endurance, though. That's the feel I want from my epic fighters.
I'm okay with a ninja-like class (i.e. swordsage) or a crusader who channels faith into martial prowess. I just also want the option of having my Leonidas as formidable.
As an aside, I really hope the ranger ends up a martial class. Removing the ranger spells and replacing them with some appropriately extraordinary and/or supernatural (to use the 3E classification) maneuvers that replicate them would be much better, flavor-wise. I'm thinking Shadow Hand with nature instead of shadows. That might even get me to buy into a ranger with d8 hit dice and/or medium BAB (I'd still prefer d10 HD, though).
Aust Diamondew
First Post
Fighters do exceed the human maximum. With a single swing a of sword a fighter can kill 8 men in six seconds, this is accomplishable at low levels. By level 20 he can take or 100s or 1000s of a opponents, with out even using magic items.
I think people are more against flashy abilities being given to fighters.
Most people I don't object to abilities like stunning fist or rage, which aren't flashy or supernatural in nature being given to fighter types, but mechanically are similar to how magic works.
I don't own Bo9s but from what I understand at least some of the characters that can be made using that book have flashy magicky abilities, and as this book has been cited as a source of inspiration for 4e, people are afraid of what will happen to fighters.
Frankly I think the system has room for fighter types both with flashy supernatural abilities and those of a more mundane nature, either through various talent trees or different classes.
I think people are more against flashy abilities being given to fighters.
Most people I don't object to abilities like stunning fist or rage, which aren't flashy or supernatural in nature being given to fighter types, but mechanically are similar to how magic works.
I don't own Bo9s but from what I understand at least some of the characters that can be made using that book have flashy magicky abilities, and as this book has been cited as a source of inspiration for 4e, people are afraid of what will happen to fighters.
Frankly I think the system has room for fighter types both with flashy supernatural abilities and those of a more mundane nature, either through various talent trees or different classes.
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