D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

This is a very poor characterization of the argument though. No one wants the rogue to be the same as the fighter. No one.

What we don't want is a binary situation where the chapter either works fine or basically makes no real contribution to the scenario.

Take two examples. In the first the party is fighting a giant. At the end of the encounter the party is victorious. Would the presence or absence of the rogue be noticed in that encounter? Likely yes because the rogue likely made significant contributions to defeating the giant.

Now the party fights an elemental. Again they are victorious. But in this encounter, the presence or absence of the rogue makes no difference. The rogue contributed so little to this encounter that he might has well have stepped outside for a smoke.

That's the issue here.

So as long as the rogue is contributing to the fight with the elemental in some fashion, you're OK with that? (I'm keying off your use of 'binary' here.)

If so, what degree of reduced effectiveness is acceptable and what not? For example, the rogue could have (instead of stepping out for a smoke) tumbled into a flanking position and fought defensively, to give the fighter a flanking bonus and allowing him to inflict more damage. He's not hurting the monster, but he's not useless either. Does the rogue need to be doing 80% of his normal damage at minimum before he's considered to be contributing?
 

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Didn't this change with Essentials?

Players do not get to pick their treasure in 4E. The DM is encouraged to get some hints from the players.

Players will often have a grocery list of requests for a particular build, and can make their own magic items given the proper rituals, but there is no rule of "Ask your players what treasure you should place."

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I have personally designed my campaign to be very sandbox. The first third of the game involved a geas as a way to build the party into a cohesive team, but after that they got the keys to the ship and have been left up to their own devices. As the DM, I do provide a central conflict which they can choose to get involved in, but I have made it clear that I they go where they want to go and I'll make do on the spot. It can be hard, but it also means I don't have to agonize over details and how to keep players on track letting them see the tracks. However, while 4E makes this much easier than 2E or 3E (I have no idea about prior editions), it's not really specific to any one edition or even any one game. Some game masters like to tell their story through the PCs, and some DMs like to just make sure that whatever the PCs choose to do has an interesting effect.
 
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So as long as the rogue is contributing to the fight with the elemental in some fashion, you're OK with that? (I'm keying off your use of 'binary' here.)

If so, what degree of reduced effectiveness is acceptable and what not? For example, the rogue could have (instead of stepping out for a smoke) tumbled into a flanking position and fought defensively, to give the fighter a flanking bonus and allowing him to inflict more damage. He's not hurting the monster, but he's not useless either. Does the rogue need to be doing 80% of his normal damage at minimum before he's considered to be contributing?

in my mind if a class is designed for high damage (+1/2 level D6) and it could come up every attack of every fight, or almost never is the problem.

Lets say I sit down to play my knife fighter in your game... he is rogue 7 so he has +5 Bab (only 2 worse then the fighter) and does 1d4 damage (not much) +4d6 sneak attack. it is pretty plain to see where his damage is coming from.

1st encounter we face a golem, I can hit for 1d4+1 (magic +1) but not much else.
2nd encounter we face a group of ghouls... 1d4+1
3rd encounter is a single necromancer... I hit him for 1d4+4d6+1

the difference is huge 2-5 and 6-29 if the average monster of level 7 has 7d8hp 31 + con mod... two hits from a rogue could take most monster out... except the long list of ones that are immune to 3/4 there damage.

My worst case scenero is the undead heavy stealth game...

OK, so in every fight I am more a liability then an asset, and when we get to the part I excel at my choice is 'go it alone' and risk a lot for very little since my team wont have the stealth score I do, or watch as the fighter misses every stealth check and makes it so there was no need for me to roll...
 

This is a very poor characterization of the argument though. No one wants the rogue to be the same as the fighter. No one.

What we don't want is a binary situation where the chapter either works fine or basically makes no real contribution to the scenario.

<snip>

That's the issue here.

I personally don't think that that's the entirety of the issue. I also have a problem from the DM side of things. Namely, if one character type is so divergent in capacity from another that designing meaningful encounters to reasonably challenge both becomes difficult. I'm currently in an OSR-ish group, and we were playing a heavily house-ruled CnC/BECMI/2e mashup game...anyway, the Dwarf character was getting so utterly unstoppable compared to the rest of the party that it was becoming very difficult for the DM to design encounters that could challenge him without incurring a slaughter to the rest of the party. In this case, the situation was made worse by Dwarf also having significant out-of-combat abilities that prevented the typical "spotlight-swapping" solution that folks often propose. For instance, the exploration function of several other classes was simply over-ridden because the Dwarf relied on his HP and excellent saves to survive any trap that he didn't find/smash on his way in.
 

Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a for...

So as long as the rogue is contributing to the fight with the elemental in some fashion, you're OK with that? (I'm keying off your use of 'binary' here.)

If so, what degree of reduced effectiveness is acceptable and what not? For example, the rogue could have (instead of stepping out for a smoke) tumbled into a flanking position and fought defensively, to give the fighter a flanking bonus and allowing him to inflict more damage. He's not hurting the monster, but he's not useless either. Does the rogue need to be doing 80% of his normal damage at minimum before he's considered to be contributing?

If my character could be replaced with a first level summon monster spell, I'd say that I'm not really as effective as I'd like to be.

If you want a concrete number, I'd guess from gut feeling that 66 per cent is probably around the minimum for me.

Losing 1/3 effectiveness for an encounter is noticeable but not crippling. Sounds about right to me.

After all, if the elemental has dr that the fighter isn't equipped for, that's about what the fighter would lose.
 

If my character could be replaced with a first level summon monster spell, I'd say that I'm not really as effective as I'd like to be.

If you want a concrete number, I'd guess from gut feeling that 66 per cent is probably around the minimum for me.

Losing 1/3 effectiveness for an encounter is noticeable but not crippling. Sounds about right to me.

After all, if the elemental has dr that the fighter isn't equipped for, that's about what the fighter would lose.

What constitutes "effectiveness?" Damage exclusively? Can the Rogue be effective without dealing damage? If a game included environmental elements that the Rogue could interact with using a universal mechanic, would that be acceptable? Forex, a game may include rules on how to use nets to entangle zombies or urns of water to weaken fire elementals, and include encounter design advice for DMs on how to add them to encounters.
 

So as long as the rogue is contributing to the fight with the elemental in some fashion, you're OK with that? (I'm keying off your use of 'binary' here.)

If so, what degree of reduced effectiveness is acceptable and what not? For example, the rogue could have (instead of stepping out for a smoke) tumbled into a flanking position and fought defensively, to give the fighter a flanking bonus and allowing him to inflict more damage. He's not hurting the monster, but he's not useless either. Does the rogue need to be doing 80% of his normal damage at minimum before he's considered to be contributing?

That's a very good question, and I think its very hard to judge within the context of D&D's general rules...and not all answers equally satisfy all players. However, this is where I think abstract player-level mechanics and resources shine the best. If you can make the character actions and effects sufficiently flexible narratively and potent mechanically, then you don't necessarily have to worry about trying to balance different flavors of fiddly bits like 3 HP and 5 ft of forced movement and imposing a condition. In Fate or Cortex+, for example, this balance issue doesn't come up, even with strongly-typed characters. A wide variety of skills/traits/abilities can be leveraged in a wide variety of circumstances, limited more by the players' creativity rather than the rules governing the skills/traits/abilities themselves.

However, that doesn't seem to be the trajectory that D&D has generally taken.* Instead, D&D has increasingly leaned towards defining characters as collections of tiny scripts (some with more flexibility than others). I'm not just talking about 4e, either, although that incarnation arguably took the principle the farthest. In the early editions, its most evident in the spellcasters. However, by at least 2e, other character types were getting in on the act as well, either through proficiencies or kits or other tweaks available in various forms. 3e got crazy with not only scripts, but script-modifiers flying all over the place (although for many classes the tiny scripts were disguised fairly well). 4e just came out of the closet and explicitly gave them to everybody. But!...

I think this trend is problematic because it also subtly emphasized a divergence between combat (where most of the little scripts apply) and non-combat (which, in spite of Skill Challenges, became less regulated as time went on.) The only instances of anything remotely similar to an AEDU system for the "interaction pillar", might be in Dungeon World or Old-School Hack (but I think that's a stretch for other reasons). Similarly, while the details of exploration might be more defined (i.e. X DC to jump Y ft.) exploration overall became less regimented (loss of "turns" vs. "rounds") as a mode of play. This makes for problems when different character classes specialize in different arenas, problems which are often called "balance" issues.

I also think the scripting trend makes balance (of the sort noted above) tougher from a design point of view. In older editions; when 5ft steps, feints, swings, and the like are swept under the rug of minute-long combat rounds; HP are abstract enough that some of those things must be incorporated into them (even if we fail to note it, narratively). In such a system, its fairly easy to say that class A does X dpr fairly regularly, but class B does 3X, but only about .33 of the time. Tossing in fiddly bits like the flanking bonus mentioned above both clouds which character gets "credit" for damage dealt, and exacerbate narrative issues with HP in general. I suspect that one of the reasons 4e has such a tight or strict feel to its tactical combat and related rules is so that the relative values of such bits remain reliable.

DISCLAIMER: The above is not intended as, nor should be construed as, an indictment on D&D or any of its editions or incarnations. Nor is the Fate/Cortex+ way of doing things perfect for all players and purposes. This is merely an observation and related suspicion on my part.

*Which may be for good or ill, and may be for a variety of reasons; business, design, or otherwise. I'm also not yet confident of how I would assess 5e in this regard.
 

Thats not true. The DM is responsible for setting up the scenario/building the world and establishing the background events. Past that point its the players that determine what actually goes on and its almost incumbent upon them to trash every plan the DM has for the campaign/world.

Unless your style of play is adversarial, that sounds to me like a blatantly dysfunctional game.
 

Effectiveness would basically be the amount of risk (in resources including time, health, friendships, magic, happy endings, etc) that a character mitigates in a challenge (combat, social, etc.) and the more reward that they bring, and the efficiency of the relationship between those two. The problem is that D&D doesn't really have many mechanics for non-combat challenges or resources, so only combat has any chance of being quantified.
 

I mentioned 4e treasure parcels in my post. But as far as "player entitlement" is concerned, it's hard to distinguish these from (say) proficiency gains per level in AD&D, or the increased ability to hit by level on the attack charts, which I never heard described as "player entitlement".

Yes - by treating character wealth as equivalent to a character's Base Attack Bonus (etc), part of the character, it creates an expectation that the GM will hand out wealth in-world. This rubs some people (me included) the wrong way. Shouldn't wealth gained tend to vary considerably depending on in-world events? It doesn't feel right when I read advice "If the PCs fail to gain treasure at point X, make sure you hand out treasure at point Y". It hits my versimiltude meter, and you know I value
world-sim play. Inherent gains automatic by level don't* feel wrong; I'm a lot happier with stuff baked into the PC than stuff which is a weird sort of mix of in-world and metagame.

I like treasure as an in-world reward; something you may or may not gain based on in-world
events. I like XP to also be gained based on in-world achievements, at least the vast majority
of XP, rather than an entitlement based on eg showing up to play.

*I'm much happier with a GM who just gives PCs a WBL reset each level than I am with the Illusionist GM who contrives for PCs to always find correct WBL in-play. My own preference in 4e is to use
Inherent bonuses and leave treasure acquisition entirely to the Fates. For my new Pathfinder
game I changed saving throw bonuses to Level+Attribute bonus for all saves, removing the need for resistance items, and little buying/making of items; other than some basic +1 & +2 weapons and armour the PCs will mostly have to make do with what they find.
 
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