D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

Yes, it is.

You are using a map and physical representations of PCs and NPCs, in order too keep track of positioning and ranges.

Miniatures and Dungeon Tiles are just fancy versions of that.

Unless you were using graph paper and pipe cleaners to make fun crafts at the table.

Sorry but a sheet of A4 graph paper, a pencil, and bits of pipe cleaner do not constitute as miniatures.

 

[The Human Target]

I think if you started a thread and clearly stated the question, 99.9% of people would disagree with you.

They are clearly both used for the same purpose.

Positioning and range calculation.

 

[enrious]

I think if you started a thread and clearly stated the question, 99.9% of people would disagree with you.

They are clearly both used for the same purpose.

Positioning and range calculation.

The same as using a VTT with a battleboard and pixels representing characters, monsters, and/or spell effects.

The medium doesn't matter; visual representation does.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Thats not using miniatures.

I think using miniature painted figures is not the issue here. The real meaning of this line of inquiry to me is the use of visual aids versus so-called "theater of the mind" play where everyone just imagines the scene and there are no physical objects used to notate positioning. To me, theater of the mind is the default and I rarely deviate from it. It sounds to me like you make some use of grids and other tools to record positioning, so you are an incremental step away from pure theater of the mind gaming. Which is fine, of course. Whatever works for you.

The question to me is whether 3e movement rules make the grid a practical necessity, which I don't think they do. 4e has a lot more small-scale position-based effects, and the ranges are written in squares rather than feet, so it's probably more assumed that you have some kind of visual aid, but even then it may or may not be truly necessary.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sorry but a sheet of A4 graph paper, a pencil, and bits of pipe cleaner do not constitute as miniatures.

Why won't that work for 4e? Why do you need minis instead?

 

[Sage Genesis]

Sorry but a sheet of A4 graph paper, a pencil, and bits of pipe cleaner do not constitute as miniatures.

In the sense that bits of pipe cleaner usually aren't small figurines with distinct appearances, true. But most people here use "miniature" as a shorthand for any graphical representation of position.

I suppose this is similar to a "d4". You can accomplish the same randomized 1-4 result by rolling a d6 and rerolling any results of 5 or 6. Or by flipping a coin for odds-evens, and then a second time for 1-3 or 2-4. Any of these methods constitutes a "d4" even though they're not little plastic tetrahedrons.

You are correct when you point out that pipe cleaner bits aren't little figurines, but within the context of this discussion it's not a meaningful point to make.

Shall we move on now?

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

Why won't that work for 4e? Why do you need minis instead?

You have already been told why and please don't play dumb just to try and win an argument. You know, as well as everyone else, that 4th edition is based on precise placement of miniatures on a map that will change round by round. There also such things as slides, push, and pull that can then start a domino effect because of various interrupt powers that is very much based in exact movements and exact location.

4th edition was designed for grid play. It was not designed for minds eye, nor was it designed for use purely with paper and a pencil.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

At the moment, 3rd edition and more so Pathfinder, give players the best option to set their ges at either a high combat level, a low one, or anywhere in between. Large combat focus was tried with 4th edition and it apparently didn't work. The proof is in the pudding because we all see how successful Pathfinder is and that's based entirely on the 3rd edition model. If the majority of people were so supposedly mad about balance then it wouldn't be the top RPG at the moment.

People want less anal balance and more freedom.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You have already been told why and please don't play dumb just to try and win an argument. You know, as well as everyone else, that 4th edition is based on precise placement of miniatures on a map that will change round by round. There also such things as slides, push, and pull that can then start a domino effect because of various interrupt powers that is very much based in exact movements and exact location.

4th edition was designed for grid play. It was not designed for minds eye, nor was it designed for use purely with paper and a pencil.

but all of those things you said can be tracked with paper and pencil, or a dry eraser board and marker, or in your head, or with minis... if you can do it with 3e I really do not understand why you can't with 4e...

 

[Halivar]

4th edition was designed for grid play. It was not designed for minds eye, nor was it designed for use purely with paper and a pencil.

3.5 also had an implicit assumption of miniatures, as was discussed exhaustively on these very boards at the time. And yet, top RPG and all that jazz...