D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

but in this case we aren't even talking about the same game, we are so far apart with experiences that even 2 GMs with 15+ years of running the game and years of running not just for there own group but at Cons have almost opposite experiences...

how do we discuse a base line when there are atleast 5 different sets of experences talking past each other?

I'm not sure how people stating the techniques that they are using, and having others probe the impact of those techniques on game balance, equates to "talking past each other?" In my opinion, the last few pages of discussion between [MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5143]Majoru Oakheart[/MENTION] is exactly the sort of discussion that should be had!
 

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if you're playing an rpg, and you experience some failure in gameplay, the problem isn't that this part of the rules is broken, it's that the game failed to capture your imagination.

To me, that capturing the imagination stuff is between the DM and the players and the best thing the rules can do is stay out of the way of good gaming.
I'm sure this is good advice for a wide cohort of RPGers. But I don't see how you can possibly think that it is playstyle neutral, given that there are quite a few playstyles in which the rules play a key role in capturing the imagination, and rather than "stay out of the way of good gaming" are a crucial component in good gaming. Your advice simply doesn't make sense for those playstyles.
 

I'm sure this is good advice for a wide cohort of RPGers. But I don't see how you can possibly think that it is playstyle neutral, given that there are quite a few playstyles in which the rules play a key role in capturing the imagination, and rather than "stay out of the way of good gaming" are a crucial component in good gaming. Your advice simply doesn't make sense for those playstyles.
Well, regardless of playstyle, a shared narrative exists comprising all the elements of a narrative: a setting, characters, and plot. All of those elements could exist without rules. In the applied sense, any in-game outcome produced during an rpg session could have been produced without rolling any dice or consulting any books. The rules may change the probability of certain outcomes, but it is a literal impossibility that a D&D book tells me something that is beyond the capacity of human imagination.

So I think it's fair to characterize rpg rules-of any sort-as being an optional and non-essential part of the experience. Because of that, I certainly hope that the rules aren't the main motivating factor for engaging the player base.

However, there probably are people who wouldn't be engaged with the game experience itself, and are instead engaged by mechanical elements. To me, this would be like going to see the latest Hobbit movie for the computer-generated battles; it's kind of missing the point. But in both cases, even people who are entering the hobby through something of a tangent are in it, I guess it's fair to say.

However, it would be quite unnatural for someone interested in process rather than content to be drawn in by parity of choices. Instead, quite the opposite. Analyzing and breaking down the value of various player choices is a significant venue for enjoyment, and I don't see any reason to beat down the min/maxers and tell them that powergaming is wrong and their work should effectively be made irrelevant by the equality of choices.

Conversely, someone who evaluates the rules as a simulation engine will not be looking for the kind of balance we're talking about, and indeed will be appalled at some of the steps taken to create said balance, as it defies the kind of logic they are looking for.

So to me, the people who use the mechanics as a window into the world, or the people who enjoy playing with mechanics for mechanics' sake and show up every week for that reason, are the conscientious objectors to the idea of an artificially mandated balance between PC options. And indeed, I've known some of both. If there are people for whom a lack of parity in various character creation options is a significant factor in dissuading them from from participating or engaging in the game, I've yet to meet them. I'm sure there are some.

But from what I can tell, the rationale put forth for it seems to be from the "player entitlement" crowd. Reading through some of the posts in this thread and its current relatives leads me to believe that some people have somehow developed an implicit player bill of rights, and some of those rights apparently create a mandate for some type of balance (the nature of which varies from poster to poster). Depending on who you ask, all characters must be roughly equal in every way, or equal within certain "pillars", or equal if the player makes a particular choice, and so on and so on.

However, I'm not aware of any textual support from the rules for these rights, and they are not part of my conception of the game at large (as opposed to the game at one group's table). As far as I'm concerned, players don't have rights (at least with regards to what happens with their characters in the game), unless they are set up as part of some social contract with a particular DM. Though it would be interesting to try and suss out what they are and if there is any consensus on them. The term "playstyle" is used so ubiquitously it's hard to tell what it means, but I would not consider player entitlement a playstyle.
 

Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a for...

Then there is no such thing as "the right way." Nothing works regardless of who's at the table.

True but some things generally work better than others. Simply throwing up your hands and claiming that every approach is equally valid isn't terribly useful advice.

I'd say that following the rules of the game that everyone agreed to play is more likely to be acceptable than "hey let's make stuff up and ignore the rules".
 

You ever notice how, without the spells that target touch ACs and bypass SR, half the problems of overpowered wizards go away? In combat at least.

It's another of those wizard balancing factors that 3e broke, mentioned earlier.
 


I'd say that following the rules of the game that everyone agreed to play is more likely to be acceptable than "hey let's make stuff up and ignore the rules".
Have you ever actually tried "hey let's make stuff up and ignore the rules"? It works pretty well!
 

But, you claim that the balance issues don't exist at all. So what balance issues is 4e not fixing for you?
None. That's the point. How could it fix something (for me) that isn't broken (for me)? It's nonsensical to claim that it fixed anything objectively for everyone.
 

You ever notice how, without the spells that target touch ACs and bypass SR, half the problems of overpowered wizards go away? In combat at least.

It's another of those wizard balancing factors that 3e broke, mentioned earlier.
Those no-SR spells are pretty stupid (and to be fair, mostly not in the core rules). There should never have been an entry in spell descriptions for SR applying. It's spell resistance. It should apply to all spells. Unusual cases (like a character with SR not being able to see through magically created fog because it is physically there, or like attacks from summoned creatures not applying SR because they're physically there) should be discussed in spell or subschool descriptions.

Touch AC is something of an issue, simply because of the D&D-ism that attack bonuses improve with level and ACs do not. It does give you a reason to play a monk though.
 

But from what I can tell, the rationale put forth for it seems to be from the "player entitlement" crowd. Reading through some of the posts in this thread and its current relatives leads me to believe that some people have somehow developed an implicit player bill of rights, and some of those rights apparently create a mandate for some type of balance (the nature of which varies from poster to poster).

Ahnehnois, I'm curious about something. I've seen "player entitlement" crowd used fairly regularly on these boards as a pejorative. For the sake of argument, let us just say its a neutral descriptor; eg, it is meant to have explanatory power rather than to slander or malign.

I've GMed solely for 28 years. Never a player except a stray evening of CoC and the very first evening of introduction to 1e. All I am and all I have ever been is a GM. However, I would 100 % be part of the caste that identifies with systems that are maligned as "player entitlement." I can easily enough discern why folks would cast that aspersion on players..."players want stuff/toys/control"...hence "entitlement." However, as a neutral descriptor, why do you think "lifer" GMs would cast their lot with the "player entitlement" crowd (systems and techniques). What utility, if any, do they gain?

For the record, I'm looking to by psychoanalyzed here, looking for motive-hunting. As such, I've forfeited any right to take offense to your response. I'm genuinely curious and just want your thoughts if you'll indulge me.
 

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