Why the Encounter Powers hate? (Maneuvers = Encounter)

[Zaphling]

Maybe they'll be something taht can augment a a normal attack, or maybe they'll be something else that doesn't really reflect the AEDU system. I don't know, but let's wait until we actually see them in the playtest before we start defining and offering feedback on them

In the 3.5 Bo9S. The maneuvers are divided into three categories: Boosts, Attack, and Stances.

the one you meant are boosts. boosts augment a normal attack.

 

[Dragoslav]

Let's face it, encounter powers are a simplified game mechanic, not an accurate simulation of anything.

Kind of like...

Hit points
Experience points
Levels
Class
Ability scores

That being said, I've always thought a "stamina" system would make such abilities more palatable.

 

[Zaphling]

I anticipate one or more classes, sub-classes, or themes with some manner of Endurance / Stamina / Ki / Power point system that recharges to some extent or another with a Short Rest. Abstract the mechanics to "points" or "slots" rather than linking it specifically to "one use of maneuver A, one use of maneuver B, one use of maneuver C, no refunds or exchanges," it tends paper over some of the immediate "WTF? Did he just forget how to trip somebody?" objections.

- Marty Lund

Hi Marty Lund. I've already explained that it's not "WTF i forgot how to trip" effect. Because you really cant forget it, it's just the enemy already knows that 'trick' and that using it another time on him will likely fail. it's just the metagame on it.

 

[BobTheNob]

I havent heard the "Seen the trick" explanation before. Dont know if it influences me that much, but thanks for bringing it into the discussion, its certainly an interesting take.

Its good, but its not rock solid. What happens if, somewhere during the battle, reinforcement arive for the enemy AFTER you have spent an encounter power. When you fight one of those reinforcements, whats the rationale for why you cant use the encounter power again?

Dont get me wrong, Im not that hung up on the whole encounter powers bit and the gameism of it. The response is purely a semantic observation of what is a semantic explenation.

My grind with encounter powers is not the "how does that work in the real world" thing, its more that I dont like diminishing resources on my fighter. As far as Im concerned, he just keep kicking along with all his options intact till finally he falls over due to HP loss.

(edit : I do want to add. The fighter appears to be a hard one in terms of people perception. I dont think there is a chance in hell that the final product will fully satisfy everyone and we all have to be willing to accept that the final product needs to work and cdeliver and enjoyable class, even if that isnt what we want or envisage that to be. Increasingly I get the feeling that an open mind on behalf of all involved will the the only feasible solution.

In that spirit, Thanks to OP for bringing a fresh take to an old debate)

 

[mlund]

Hi Marty Lund. I've already explained that it's not "WTF i forgot how to trip" effect. Because you really cant forget it, it's just the enemy already knows that 'trick' and that using it another time on him will likely fail. it's just the metagame on it.

You fight goblins in room A and kill them all. A round later 6 more goblins come around a corner and discover you and attack you. No short rest. No cool down. No Encounter Power recharges. That's where the "the enemy already knows that trick" argument always flounders.

If the mechanics actually said, "Once an enemy has witnessed you use this power you can not use it against him successfully during the same combat," it would probably work right right up until you hit hedge cases - ("zombies don't learn their opponent's moves," "grey ooze isn't smart enough to adapt," "this monster only has tremor-sense so he couldn't have seen what I threw at that guy," etc.). Every mechanic has hedge-cases you've got to hand-wave one way or another, so that's less of a problem.

- Marty Lund

 

[Gold Roger]

With the great barriers of acceptance that comes with encounter powers, they have proven themself not to be the be all, end all of martial maneuver design.

Yes, your explanations work. For some people, but not enough people. They are neither universal truth, nor of infallibe logic.

Wotc has talented designers. I'd rather see some new takes on the idea, than rehashing the same debates we had when the book of nine swords came out and haven't subsided since then (I loved that book, by the way).

 

[Zaphling]

You fight goblins in room A and kill them all. A round later 6 more goblins come around a corner and discover you and attack you. No short rest. No cool down. No Encounter Power recharges. That's where the "the enemy already knows that trick" argument always flounders.

If the mechanics actually said, "Once an enemy has witnessed you use this power you can not use it against him successfully during the same combat," it would probably work right right up until you hit hedge cases - ("zombies don't learn their opponent's moves," "grey ooze isn't smart enough to adapt," "this monster only has tremor-sense so he couldn't have seen what I threw at that guy," etc.). Every mechanic has hedge-cases you've got to hand-wave one way or another, so that's less of a problem.

- Marty Lund

Pretty much your also correct there and I also agree. I'm only explaining this as a default assumption since most enemies are 'normal' creatures in the sense that they are not disabled, aka blind, deaf, etc.

about the reinforcements goblin, as a DM, I always houserule and give them another chance to recover one encounter attack power. encounter powers or maneuvers are complex attacks and it really taxes the user's stamina or energy per se, thats why i only allow one recovery of it during a 'reinforcements' period since allowing everything to recover will give the idea that they must be tireless, which is untrue.

 

[TheSleepyKing]

I think people understand perfectly well the rationale for encounter powers. They just don't agree with it.

What if, for example, new enemies join the fight during a single encounter? They didn't see the "trick" in action, so can the player use it again? No, not for any in-world reason, but just because the rules say so. (Edit: ninja'd on this point by mlund above)

And then there are encounter powers (in 4e) where an enemy learning of the trick should have no impact on the viability of using it again. Say you have an encounter power that lets you shoot two arrows instead of one: how would the enemy seeing that prevent you from doing it again?

Ultimately, encounter powers boil down to a gamist concept that's designed to encourage variety and cinematic combat. For some players that's great, for others it grates.

For my part, I'd be happy with encounter powers if the specifics of the power made sense. But I honestly can't think of many that would, beyond those that use a physical expendable resource that can be recovered at the end of a battle.

I much prefer at-will abilities that can be triggered by a condition or position. Rather than say "you can trip once per encounter", I'd rather the rule say "you can attempt to trip an opponent who is flanked or flat footed". That also gives you teamwork benefits; a rogue might feint to make the enemy flat footed, then your fighter might make the trip attempt.

I could, however, get with the idea of per-encounter surges like the fighter's (daily) heroic surge in the playtest. It represents an extra heroic effort, rather than some specific maneuver that can only be pulled off once every five minutes.

 

[Zaphling]

Unlike other players, I've actually understood the concept of AEDU from the start. The logic behind it when it was released. Why some fighting techniques can be pulled off only once per fight, or once per day. It all boils down to the 'meta' energy inside a character's body since it taxes them, hence short rests.

 

[mlund]

As much as I loved the balance of AEDU, it's obviously not a direct matter of energy with Martial characters like it is with Arcane and Divine ones. If it was just a matter of energy your Level 1 Attack Encounter Power a second time instead of your Level 3 Attack Encounter - since Martial Powers aren't "memorized" or "prayed for" or in any other way externally manifested and harnessed for release ahead of time.

To some extent the Essentials books made this more feasible by just giving Martial character a single Encounter Power that was an attack rider and then boosting the number of times you could use it in an encounter like a Power Pool. Psionics got the whole "a matter of power" thing right with enhancement - and I hate saying nice things about Psionics.

- Marty Lund