D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Oofta]

If it does, and it isn't limited to what I feel is realistic, then I don't like it either.

Just being honest here.

It's a battlemaster maneuver that after you hit someone they have disadvantage to hit anyone else if they fail a wisdom save. I don't care for it either. Battlemaster is a subclass that has some borderline supernatural abilities that aren't called out as such unlike, say, Rune Knight.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, a website told me in it's the PHB. So it seems pretty core!

Not relevant to my preferences.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Isn't the disadvantage because they're behaving a certain way? I mean, what else is it caused by?

But what causes the disadvantage? Because they're focusing all their ire on the fighter who attacked them?

But then how does that fit with mindless automata, with your super-disciplined guards, etc?

I think wis save is enough to account discipline. After all, the guards will merely distracted but are not forced to abandon their posts etc. And yes, this shouldn’t affect mindless creatures but does. Keyword system would help here. In any case, this power is less likely to cause weird situations than the one proposed earlier.

 

[Micah Sweet]

i'd still like the mechanics though, being able to say 'you get under their skin' isn't worth toffee if it doesn't reliably affect play, the rogue can taunt as well as the sorcerer as well as the fighter, without mechanics it just comes down to Mother May I with the GM.

I really hate that demeaning, diminutive phrase.

 

[pemerton]

I really hate that demeaning, diminutive phrase.

I really hate people describing abilities as supernatural when it's clear, in the fiction, that the events that are unfolding are utterly mundane.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I really hate people describing abilities as supernatural when it's clear, in the fiction, that the events that are unfolding are utterly mundane.

Its not clear to me.

 

[Xetheral]

Worrying about whether "a person without supernatural abilities can accomplish it" is to me, trying to make a fantasy game fixed on the real world, instead of the fantasy genre.

Fafhrd could do this. Inigo Montoya could do this. Zorro could do this (and isn't even a fantasy hero!). Galavant could do this. Locke Lamora could do this. None of these characgters "use magic" in any overt sense. But, they live in worlds that are larger than life. It is genre appropriate for them to be able to do this.

The measure of magic is not the real world, but the genre you are aiming for. IMHO.

While I entirely agree with you that the ability to taunt foes into initiating violence is genre-appropriate for heroic fiction (fantasy or otherwise), the proposed ability mechanically does far more than that, by specifying the form of that violence.

Is it really just "larger than life", for example, if the ability causes Jabba (if he fails his wisdom save) to get down off his throne platform and slither over to physically attack the character using the ability, rather than just dropping them into the rancor pit or ordering the guards to shoot the character? Or causes C-3PO to unlock the door he's cowering behind and shuffle over to try to physically hit the character?

Thematically the ability to taunt foes to the point of violence isn't necessarily supernatural. But if a specific mechanical implementation can easily cause in-universe results which are implausible even within the context of the fiction, at some point doesn't such an ability start measuring up to the in-genre definition of magic?

Even if we can agree that such a point exists, however, where exactly that point lies probably varies wildly from person to person. And I think that connects this side discussion back to the OP: even acknowledging that D&D is a game, people will have different preferences for how game-like they want it to feel. And the more abilities (or other mechanics) there are that are ostensibly merely larger than life, but that can easily produce results in the fiction implausible enough to qualify (to that individual) as magic or supernatural in-genre, the more game-like it is going to feel.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Especially when it's a thing people do in real like all the time.

Are provocateurs all magic?

 

[redwullf]

I think the OP is referring to arguments about design aesthetics that seem "gamey" to some people. It pops up from time to time in the martial/caster balance discussions. There will occasionally be people arguing that, for example, you can't give martial classes abilities that reset on a long rest or short rest or whatever, because it's not "realistic" to have abilities with limited uses.

The Bride kills and maims dozens of people, but only uses the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique one time…

 

[Oofta]

I really hate people describing abilities as supernatural when it's clear, in the fiction, that the events that are unfolding are utterly mundane.

Walking into any situation at all and forcing people to attack you is mundane? Really?