D&D 5E Wish: additional 9th level slot

[Todd Roybark]

What is appropriate for one edition isn't necessarily appropriate for another.

There are sign posts to guide us within 5e, that are 5e coherent, and consistent with history.

Primal Champion can give a Barbarian 24 Strength and Constitution.
A caster of Wish, ‘unshackling’ a single ability score at 17th level, seems to be a much weaker alternative, 3 levels earlier.

A 22 ability score, (in the spellcasting ability score for a caster,) is not going to destroy a game.

Likewise a +1 to an ability score is worth exactly half an ASI. Seems fair, for a rare but risky application of Wish.

All of this assumes restraint on the part of the player. Having an Ace up your sleeve works much better, when people aren’t looking to see if you are cheating.

As for the mountain, I never thought to drop one on someone. As a player it would be cool, to know that I summoned that. That I as a player, got an opportunity to change the topography of that shared intersubjective creative space that is the D&D play experience.

It doesn’t matter how many times the Paladin, Divine Smites Critical Hits for 96 damage.
The Sorcerer can always point to the mountain in the distance, and say “I made that”.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The DMG rules for advancement above 20th level raise the ability score cap to 30.

 

[Fanaelialae]

There are sign posts to guide us within 5e, that are 5e coherent, and consistent with history.

Primal Champion can give a Barbarian 24 Strength and Constitution.
A caster of Wish, ‘unshackling’ a single ability score at 17th level, seems to be a much weaker alternative, 3 levels earlier.

A 22 ability score, (in the spellcasting ability score for a caster,) is not going to destroy a game.

Likewise a +1 to an ability score is worth exactly half an ASI. Seems fair, for a rare but risky application of Wish.

All of this assumes restraint on the part of the player. Having an Ace up your sleeve works much better, when people aren’t looking to see if you are cheating.

As for the mountain, I never thought to drop one on someone. As a player it would be cool, to know that I summoned that. That I as a player, got an opportunity to change the topography of that shared intersubjective creative space that is the D&D play experience.

It doesn’t matter how many times the Paladin, Divine Smites Critical Hits for 96 damage.
The Sorcerer can always point to the mountain in the distance, and say “I made that”.

A 22 ability score won't destroy the game. That doesn't mean that a DM should necessarily allow it one to successfully wish for it.

In my current game, the wizard character merged with the fallen God of Secrets (essentially Vecna). It gave him a number of strong benefits, including +1 Int for every level he gained thereafter. He's now 20th level with a 30 Int. He's absurdly strong, but I can still challenge him.

None of the above is necessarily a reason to allow wish to increase ability scores. Personally, I would allow increasing ability scores with wish, but only at a risk. However, I feel that a DM would be perfectly justified in ruling that permanent benefits like this are beyond the scope of a wish.

 

[fearsomepirate]

So if you try to do something more powerful than what a 9th level spell could normally do, it isn't that wish is trying to screw you over, but rather that it's trying to channel the energy to make what you want happen, and if that thing is beyond the normal capabilities of a high-level spell, it has to cosmically balance out the effects to get that energy to do what you want.

This is exactly how I explained things to my players when they liberated a chain-smoking efreeti (first he made them wish for a carton of Marlboros). He said he could do anything you tried, but if you tried to go beyond what a 9th level spell could do, he couldn't control side effects of the universe trying to maintain its own internal order. So if you wish for St Cuthbert's cudgel, it's liable to come with the demigod attached, and he's probably not going to be pleased.

 

[shadowoflameth]

I would allow it, it's equivalent to an epic boon but he could only benefit from that Wish once and it would count as one of the three.

 

[shadowoflameth]

RAW you can try anything but if it's beyond an 8th level spell, you can only benefit from 3 in a creature's existence. A spell slot is on par with an epic boon, so is a 2 pt. ability boost. but these would both be beyond an 8th level spell. You can go from 20-22 on an ability though with a rare magic item which is well within the scope of an 8h level caster to make.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

If a level 20 party wanted to get increased ability score, there are items that provide a fixed 29 ability score (legendary belt of giant strength) for 100,000 gp (can be created by a few standard casting of Wish) and 50 workweek of downtime. It could drop the standard balance of the game out of the window, yet it's a RAW possibility. Unless the GM vetoes that by never providing adventuring opportunities to acquire the magical recipes. Would I allow Wish to increase ability scores? Frankly, it's not creative, it's just power-hungry and provide a long term benefit for the expanditure of a disposable resource... I am not fan of that. I'd prefer it to be granted through... teaching the ritual to create the diadem of Illithid intellect. With a plot hook.

By RAW, an artificer could start to craft for his group the very rare version of the belts (with a lowly 25 stat value) with 10k gp and 6.25 workweeks each at level 13.

 

[Ashrym]

@Ashrym and others, when duplicating an 8th level spell or lower, would you allow a player to add effects from another class?

Would you allow a healing spell duplicated, (by the Wish spell) , to have an effect as if cast by a Cleric of Life, for example?

What about with Metamagic effects the character does not posses?

I think an argument can be made, that the subset: any spell,(by definition), includes: a particular spell.

A Maximum damage Delayed Blast Fireball cast from a 9th level slot via Wish, falls under “any spell”.

From the Wish Spell description:
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower.

I let wish replicated any spell from any list of 8th level or lower, including increasing the level of the spell up to an 8th level slot if it's scalable without question.

Metamagic applies a modification to the spell from a class ability as opposed to being a spell so I think that technically would fall under nonstandard use because it isn't a function of spell level itself. A meta'd 8th level spell is more powerful than an 8th level spell in an 8th level slot, for example, but I'm not really inclined to enforce that technicality, personally. Rules lawyering I would say no; reasonable request I wouldn't doubt allowing it for spell levels 1 through 5 and would consider it for higher level spells.

I don't make players jump through hoops trying to make the perfect wording for a reasonable request and it doesn't matter how much they try for unreasonable requests.

 

[jmucchiello]

You don't wish for a spell slot. You wish for a pearl of power of 9th level. Must harder for that wish to be twisted. (Not impossible, but the fact that you can lose the pearl should make it a wash.)

 

[Fanaelialae]

You don't wish for a spell slot. You wish for a pearl of power of 9th level. Must harder for that wish to be twisted. (Not impossible, but the fact that you can lose the pearl should make it a wash.)

I'd say that's easy to twist. The Pearl of Power could belong to a lich, dragon, or powerful organization that wants it back. Even if you lose it, you don't necessarily lose their ire.

Alternately, since 9th level PoPs don't exist in 5e (they're always 3rd level IIRC) the DM can easily just rule that it automatically fails. It's akin to wishing for a Staff of the Magi with 500 charges. That's simply not a thing unless the DM wishes it to be.