D&D 5E Wish: additional 9th level slot

[Ace]

Yeah, obviously it is something the character has, because of game mechanics. I have nothing against tables that prefer using game jargon in character conversations, you do what you like. To me, it feels like it would turn my game sessions into Order of the Stick comic strips, if you know what I mean.
Imagine a conversation like this:

Medan the fighter: "How about we take a short rest, comrades? I'm all out of superiority dice"
Grom the barbarian: "Hah, tired already, human? I'm at full hit points and can still rage 2 times today, so I say we push on"
Alleria the wizard: "I wouldn't mind a short rest, it'd allow me to recover a few spell slots"
Bran the cleric: "Also my channel divinity power, not to mention we could spend some hit dice"

This is the kind of stuff I avoid like the plague, it sucks all joy out of roleplaying for me.

I feel much the same way though I assume that spell casters actually do use terms like "prepare", "spell level" and some of the others as trade talk.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The way I run wish is that it is the most powerful spell a mortal can access. There are limits (no, "I wish for unlimited wishes", "I wish to become a Greater Power", etc), but that wish spell will try its hardest to make whatever you wish for happen within the limits of what I feel that mortal magic should be able to accomplish. There aren't any epic spells in 5e, and for me, wish takes their place.

So if you try to do something more powerful than what a 9th level spell could normally do, it isn't that wish is trying to screw you over, but rather that it's trying to channel the energy to make what you want happen, and if that thing is beyond the normal capabilities of a high-level spell, it has to cosmically balance out the effects to get that energy to do what you want.

Enter drawbacks. Whenever you wish for something beyond the normal limits, the wish is either going to have to take the route of least resistance, or it's going to have to have negative effects to balance it out to the same general power level. If you made a wish that used completely ironclad language to ask for something way beyond what it should be able to do, and there really wasn't any other way to interpret it as doing something other than exactly what it asked for, it would probably just fail to work--though that's an undesirable result I would try really hard to avoid. Any spellcaster who actually knew wish would know enough to avoid casting a wish that would just fail. (If you get the wish by other means than being able to cast it...well, that's when you're most likely to over-reach or screw up.)

One additional element that I include is that the caster can intentionally attempt to cosmically balance a over-powered wish. This could be done either through some expensive ritual (sacrifice a powerful magical item for more juice, etc) or from specifying their own chosen drawbacks. If these things are actually fair (ie, the drawbacks actually matter, the ritual is actually powerful enough, etc) then the wish will likely work. Boom, epic magic. (I have a friend to thank for that idea.)

So in this example, here's how I'd look at it. There is an epic boon that does exactly what this is asking for. Epic boons can be handed out as a form of advancement beyond 20th level. So asking for an epic boon is kind of like asking for a free level. Asking for that kind of permanent character power increase with a spell isn't really something within the normal power zone. But the actual thing asked for is within the realm of what a character can have (it actually has an XP cost associated with it!)

Here's what might happen:
-The player gains the epic boon. This boon is an "advance" on their first epic boon. The first time they would gain enough XP to gain an epic boon, they don't gain one, since they are just paying for this one.

And since this is still beyond the normal power level of the spell, there has to be a balancing factor. It might be one of the following:
-They sacrifice a legendary (non-consumable) magic item.
-They lose both a 6th and an 8th level spell slot until they gain the XP for the epic boon, at which time they regain those spell slots.
-Your Strength remains at 3 until you gain the XP for the epic boon. (Might not be enough of a balance)

If the character lacks the Arcana skill or otherwise somehow doesn't know what they're doing, things might go poorly with a balancing factor like one of the following:
-The epic boon you gain is taken from someone else. The wish likely looks for an abundance of power to draw from, so we may be talking about a fiendish archmage or some unique being of power. Congratulations, you now have someone who is keenly interested in reclaiming that daily spell slot from you, and probably has the ability to locate you and come after it. If that creature dies, you lose the boon. If you die, they regain it.
-Every time you use that spell slot something unpredictable and bad happens, as the ability draws on eldritch energies to power itself. One time it might create what amounts to a mystical signal flare to the closest power-hungry extraplanar beings. Another time it might shut down the party's ability to regain HD for a week. Another time it might just center an inconvenient earthquake spell on you (as if someone else had cast it on you). And if I couldn't think of anything else, it might just smack you and everyone nearby with 9d10 unresistable necrotic damage.

Those last two sound like really fun story ideas now that I write them up. The point is that you really should be getting what you want--it's just that you have to pay for it and you may or may not be okay with the price, and you may or may not be able to choose the price--based on your skill and preparations.

I think this way of handling it preserves all the fun of what a D&D wish spell is about. It can allow for ways of safely pushing past the normal power level by trading in something of equal value. It can allow for "cursed wishes". It can allow for carefully worded language to actually do what it is intended, but without throwing off the overall balance. It can allow for whimsical seeming results to cosmically make sense. It can keep wishes tricky, without making them seem as risky as a deck of many things.

 

[Zardnaar]

I thought of a stinker of a twist for this wish. Tell the player you will have to think it over and grant wish the following week.

Update their PC to a previous edition where you get 2 level 9 slots.

The wish was granted, it's up to then to find a DM for their character.

Remember to hand them a character sheet for the previous edition with the update on it. Their character is removed from the 5E game.

Remember to roll the 1 in 3 chance wish can't be cast.

If you make it AD&D maybe they can cast wish again to return to 5E. Assuming they pass the 1 in 3 roll. Remember to age them 5 years and pass a system shock roll.

 

[Li Shenron]

What would be your ruling if a Wizard wished to have an additional 9th level slot?

For a day? Sure.
Permanently? No.

Contrary to what might be more traditional, I would not care about the exact wording of the spell, because IMHO it can degenerate into a player-gamemaster wrestling contest about who is smarter than the other in exploiting the language. Instead, I would agree with the player on the intent of their wish. When the PHB tells the player to "state your wish to the DM as precisely as possible" it doesn't have to mean that your wording must be precise, to me it's more important that your intent is precise. The wording itself is more up to the PC than the player.

The 5e version of the spell already guarantees that Wish can duplicate spells of 8th level and lower. Everything else carries a cost and a risk which are included in the PHB description (in my opinion this is already unfair, there are certainly other effects beyond duplicating spells which should be allowed without a risk of losing Wish forever).

Generally speaking I don't believe the the intent of the spell is to provide permanent character augmentations, but rather to give a creative player the chance to "save the day".

As a matter of fact, I might even allow a much more dramatic effect than a single 9th level slot. If a character wishes for "unlimited spells slots for the current/next encounter" I might actually go for it (would make it a bit like the famous Varsuuvius scene in Order of the Stick). Then I will of course have to think about the (certain) cost and the (additional possible) risk involved (I would probably decide a probability and ask the player if they want to risk before casting), but why not?

Permanent augmentations, I would really not allow.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Regarding the exact wording, I think it's a "mind bug" because we imagine a genie granting a Wish or a contract with the devil, where the wish giver can be of ill intent. It's very possible that the Wish spell doesn't actually, in character, contains ANY description of the intended effect, but just arcane language or even whistling a tune that make the universe break in unusual ways, for what we know (not making it possible to have ironclad legalese wording).

 

[Fanaelialae]

Regarding the exact wording, I think it's a "mind bug" because we imagine a genie granting a Wish or a contract with the devil, where the wish giver can be of ill intent. It's very possible that the Wish spell doesn't actually, in character, contains ANY description of the intended effect, but just arcane language or even whistling a tune that make the universe break in unusual ways, for what we know (not making it possible to have ironclad legalese wording).

Yeah, I see it similarly. Like magically trying to hack the source code of the universe, within a very limited window of opportunity.

Adding a one line statement to run an established block of code is easy and no risk (the basic use). You're running the spell command with a dev override (hence, the standard requirements are waived).

Other changes that are more complex but limited in scope (the examples) aren't risky but are resource intensive (strength drain) and get you flagged as an unauthorized user (spell backlash). There's also a risk that you will be blocked from further attempts to access the back door of the system (33% chance).

Even greater changes are possible but risky, since you are coding on the fly and don't exactly have the opportunity to test your changes. It might work perfectly. It might work but have some bugs. It might not work at all. Such changes are also resource intensive and get you flagged.

IMC, the 33% doesn't automatically remove the ability to cast wish. Rather, your hack has been noticed by a system administrator who will then investigate. As such, the mage has an opportunity to negotiate whether they will lose their access.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Permanent augmentations, I would really not allow.

What about a Wish spell request, to remove the 20 maximum ability score cap, on a particular ability? or a +1 to an ability score?

Either request, seems consistent with D&D history for the Wish Spell. Neither, seems ‘game breaking’ mechanically. Narratively it is huge...you just permanently altered yourself or someone with magic.

Would you let someone use Wish to bring a mountain into existence ?

Can the Wish spell not affect topography?

 

[Fanaelialae]

What about a Wish spell request, to remove the 20 maximum ability score cap, on a particular ability? or a +1 to an ability score?

Either request, seems consistent with D&D history for the Wish Spell. Neither, seems ‘game breaking’ mechanically. Narratively it is huge...you just permanently altered yourself or someone with magic.

Would you let someone use Wish to bring a mountain into existence ?

Can the Wish spell not affect topography?

My answer to this is that of course you can. At a risk.

Which explains why wizards don't just go around wishing for mountains to drop on people. The ones who try eventually get a mountain dropped on themselves instead.

Also, 5e isn't earlier editions. Prior to 3e, the only way to raise ability scores was through magic. With Wish being one of the only permanent ways to do so. In later editions, including 5e, ability score increases were baked directly into level progression. What is appropriate for one edition isn't necessarily appropriate for another.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, obviously it is something the character has, because of game mechanics. I have nothing against tables that prefer using game jargon in character conversations, you do what you like. To me, it feels like it would turn my game sessions into Order of the Stick comic strips, if you know what I mean.
Imagine a conversation like this:

Medan the fighter: "How about we take a short rest, comrades? I'm all out of superiority dice"
Grom the barbarian: "Hah, tired already, human? I'm at full hit points and can still rage 2 times today, so I say we push on"
Alleria the wizard: "I wouldn't mind a short rest, it'd allow me to recover a few spell slots"
Bran the cleric: "Also my channel divinity power, not to mention we could spend some hit dice"

This is the kind of stuff I avoid like the plague, it sucks all joy out of roleplaying for me.

Okay, what does a conversation about resting and resources look like in your games?

In my games, the above is fine, because we all know that the characters are saying things that makes sense to them in the game world. There is a name for spell slots, and for channel divinity, etc, and the things that are more nebulous, there are words like health, vitality, etc, but because it gives more clarity, we just use the game terms for most of it.

Even out of character, the barbarian player wouldn't be likely to say, "i can still rage 2 times today". They would just say, "I haven't raged today, and I've taken no damage, so I'm fine."

Spoiler: tangential rant about resting and PCs that complain about resting

But also, most people wouldn't insist on not taking an hour rest just because they aren't tired. People need to eat, expel waste in a safe place, etc, and it's useful to take some time to check your gear and the like.
What's more, entirely in character, if your companions have limited resources that they can regain by taking an hour's rest, and there isn't significant pressure to not rest, I'd be worried that a character that insists on not resting is being played in an unrealistically, or perhaps realistically but still disruptively, antagonistic manner. The wizard regaining a few spell castings for the day makes the group more effective. The fighter taking a breather so that they can then fight at full efficacy again because they've expending a lot of energy in the last couple fights makes the group more effective.
The cleric saying, "hey, I'd rather spend an hour resting and eating and get some water, than spend my spell power healing you, when I can instead just save that spell power for when you get hit really hard and need divine healing to stay alive", is not something that any thinking creature, even an int 6 barbarian, ignores.
Now, the fighter (being tactically smart if they're a battlemaster) or someone else might say, "we may need to rest, but can we afford to? Can the folk of Waymeet afford for us to rest?" and that's a whole other conversation.

The cleric and wizard might say "spell power" isntead of spell slots in a lot of cases, but there absolutely has to be some in world jargon for a spell slot of a given level. The wizard and cleric can talk about spell slots, upcasting, etc, in game, because those things exist in game and are things about which they are experts. So, do you invent jargon that translates, or do you force your players to linguistically dance around those terms, or do you ignore the realities of the game world and pretend that there aren't terms for these things in the game world?

 

[TiwazTyrsfist]

I'd allow it, but make it a One Use slot.
So, once they actually cast a spell using that slot, it goes away.

This is assuming the Genie is acting in good faith.

If the Genie is being spiteful, vengeful, deliberately twisted, or Evil, I'd do something stranger.
E.G. - You LOSE 2 Lvl 1 slots, 2 Lvl 2 slots, and 1 Lvl 3 slot. You gain 1 Lvl 9 slot, but it can only be used to cast Lvl 1 spells that power up using higher level slots.
E.G.2 - You gain a Lvl 9 Spell Slot. It's a Lvl 9 Druid Spell slot. You can't use it until you can cast Lvl 9 Druid spells.
E.G.3 - You gain a Lvl 9 Spell Slot, but you don't choose the spell that's prepared in it. Each day at dawn a random spell is assigned to it. If you DON'T cast the spell before the next morning (When it would refill) the spell auto triggers and the DM determines all targeting and variable effects.