D&D 5E Wish: additional 9th level slot

[Todd Roybark]

That is an overly cautious ruling, in my opinion. Using one’s only 9th level spell slot, to emulate an 8th level spell, is already a significant opportunity cost.

This is the Wish spell, to quote the PHB:
“ Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast.”

So one is not casting a spell at a higher level, that rule does not apply.
We already are at the ‘mightiest’ level. The 8th level spell is cast in the 9th level spell slot....the 8th level spell being duplicated is not being cast at a higher level, Wish is being cast at lower level.

Logically, it is an example of 5e Design Philosophy of the specific rule supersedes the general rule. Especially, given, there are no rules to cast a spell at a lower level than the spell slot expended, in 5e. (note edited for spell slot verbiage)

Flavor text is a record of design intent, regardless, even if the author is oblivious to this fact.

 

[Fanaelialae]

That is an overly cautious ruling, in my opinion. Using one’s only 9th level spell slot, to emulate an 8th level spell, is already a significant opportunity cost.

This is the Wish spell, to quote the PHB:
“ Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast.”

So one is not casting a spell at a higher level, that rule does not apply.
We already are at the ‘mightiest’ level. The 8th level spell is cast in the 9th level spell slot....the 8th level spell being duplicated is not being cast at a higher level, Wish is being cast at lower level.

Logically, it is an example of 5e Design Philosophy of the specific rule supersedes the general rule. Especially as there are no rules to cast a spell at a lower level in 5e.

Flavor text is a record of design intent, regardless if the author is oblivious to this fact.

It's using your 9th level slot to cast any spell of 8th level or lower. While there is some opportunity cost, that is overwhelmingly an opportunity. Particularly given that you ignore the casting time and components normally required for that spell.

The book is clear that a spell cast using a 9th level spell slot is a 9th level spell. Wish allows you to duplicate 8th level spells.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Particularly given that you ignore the casting time and components normally required for that spell.

Right, and the poor sod who just duplicated Magic Missile,(or any other damage dealing spell), just did the DM a favor, by not casting Simulacrum. So, throw a coin to your Witcher and let the poor sod have a 9th level spell slot worth, of whatever they cast.

It might keep them distracted, from discovering truly devious uses for the Wish spell.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Right, and the poor sod who just duplicated Magic Missile,(or any other damage dealing spell), just did the DM a favor, by not casting Simulacrum. So, throw a coin to your Witcher and let the poor sod have a 9th level spell slot worth, of whatever they cast.

It might keep them distracted, from discovering truly devious uses for the Wish spell.

I was mentionning the rule clarification to say what is a "by the book" example. Since I'd grant some version of an extra spell slot in some circumstances, I would probably rule that "throwing a 9th level Magic Missile" is (a) in RAW, a non-standard use of the spell (b) a rather underpowered use, not "beyond the above example" and exempt it from stress and risk of losing Wish. 11d4+11 (38 damage on average) is not more powerful than what you could get with Sunburst (42 to all targets in a 60 foot radius, save for half, plus beneficial effect) or Incendiary Cloud (45 fire damage to all in a 20 foot radius, save for half, but each round for a minute if used well).

 

[Fanaelialae]

Right, and the poor sod who just duplicated Magic Missile,(or any other damage dealing spell), just did the DM a favor, by not casting Simulacrum. So, throw a coin to your Witcher and let the poor sod have a 9th level spell slot worth, of whatever they cast.

It might keep them distracted, from discovering truly devious uses for the Wish spell.

Wishing for magic missile should be a 9th level spell, but instantly wishing a simulacrum into being should only an 8th level spell? It could be an important difference(for example, if someone tries to dispel it). Where do we draw the line of what is weak enough to bump up to 9th level and what should be capped at 8th?

8th level is perfectly sufficient (and consistent).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

When speaking in character at my table, any player saying things like "9th level spell slot", "+2 weapon", "death saving throws", "expended superiority dice" etc., is politely warned to stop doing that. Using game jargon while speaking in character breaks immersion for everyone and is just distracting. YMMV, of course.

Oof. Yeah, definitely a playstyle difference. All those thing reference in world stuff, trying to make everyone dance around those terms would completely take me out of the game. Especially stuff like spell slots, where it’s objectively part of the characters reality. Maybe “slot” is a bad name for it in world, but...it’s a thing the character has.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

If I remember correctly the Merlin series of Amber novels, spells were actually stored, nearly cast, in slots in the Logrus-enhanced mind matrix of the hero, so he only had to complete it by adding a few gestures and words. So he litterally had slots to prepare spells into. I liked this imagery very much.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Oof. Yeah, definitely a playstyle difference. All those thing reference in world stuff, trying to make everyone dance around those terms would completely take me out of the game. Especially stuff like spell slots, where it’s objectively part of the characters reality. Maybe “slot” is a bad name for it in world, but...it’s a thing the character has.

The way that I handle it is the "universal translator". Essentially, characters in world don't say slots or +2 sword, but they have some equivalent term for the concepts that is understood by other characters in the world. When a player says spell slot the character is automatically using the in world equivalent.

It's like how I came up with in world Common equivalents for the days of the week, but I don't actually force my players to use them. They just appear on handouts (with the English equivalent in parentheses) to add a touch more verisimilitude.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The way that I handle it is the "universal translator". Essentially, characters in world don't say slots or +2 sword, but they have some equivalent term for the concepts that is understood by other characters in the world. When a player says spell slot the character is automatically using the in world equivalent.

It's like how I came up with in world Common equivalents for the days of the week, but I don't actually force my players to use them. They just appear on handouts (with the English equivalent in parentheses) to add a touch more verisimilitude.

Yep, same. I love stuff that is an easy replacement, like Circle in place of Spell Level, but for most things we don’t really have great language for in fiction terminology for stuff like “+2 Sword”.

 

[Olrox17]

Oof. Yeah, definitely a playstyle difference. All those thing reference in world stuff, trying to make everyone dance around those terms would completely take me out of the game. Especially stuff like spell slots, where it’s objectively part of the characters reality. Maybe “slot” is a bad name for it in world, but...it’s a thing the character has.

Yeah, obviously it is something the character has, because of game mechanics. I have nothing against tables that prefer using game jargon in character conversations, you do what you like. To me, it feels like it would turn my game sessions into Order of the Stick comic strips, if you know what I mean.
Imagine a conversation like this:

Medan the fighter: "How about we take a short rest, comrades? I'm all out of superiority dice"
Grom the barbarian: "Hah, tired already, human? I'm at full hit points and can still rage 2 times today, so I say we push on"
Alleria the wizard: "I wouldn't mind a short rest, it'd allow me to recover a few spell slots"
Bran the cleric: "Also my channel divinity power, not to mention we could spend some hit dice"

This is the kind of stuff I avoid like the plague, it sucks all joy out of roleplaying for me.