D&D 5E Wizard strategies discussed

[Treantmonklvl20]

I recently did a podcast where we discussed wizard strategies. Please find it HERE.

Edit: I should point out that in the "minor illusion" example the opponent could use it's first attack to attack the halfling with disadvantage, thus interacting with the box and not getting disadvantage with attack #2. I can't edit the podcast, so just want to bring up that I agree with this point.

I also want to put in a caveat I should have made clear in the podcast: We discuss two tactical examples. OF COURSE everything in the examples is circumstantial. These ARE NOT intended to be recommendations on what you need to do specifically with your own wizard beyond thinking creatively rather than just throwing the highest damage spell.

 

[spectacle]

Reading the title, I thought this would be another thread discussing Wizards of the Coast's marketing strategy for 5E

 

[Jester David]

I just started listening to the Orc Labs podcast a few weeks back. Good stuff so far.

 

[KarinsDad]

I recently did a podcast where we discussed wizard strategies. Please find it HERE.

Many DMs do not allow Minor Illusion (not Minor Image) to create advantage or disadvantage since the spell itself does not give this property. Advantage and disadvantage are huge boosts that shouldn't be handed out willy nilly with a cantrip.

The concept of "holes that the halfling can see through, but the monster cannot" and a "hole to attack out through" is a bit lame.

Nothing wrong with a solid box. But something wrong with a box that the halfling can see through but the monster cannot.

Also, nothing wrong with tactics like a halfling archer being behind a Minor Illusion before the encounter even starts which gives the halfling a chance to interact with the illusion so that he can see through it and can attack through it. But in combat, illusions should affect PCs the same as NPCs (shy of the spell stating otherwise).


As for the Shocking Grasp POV, it doesn't take into account balancing damage across the entire party. If the wizard takes the chance of using Shocking Grasp, there are three outcomes: he hits and gets away, he misses and gets hit back, he misses and he gets missed back. His odds of getting the first or third outcome tends to be about 75% or so (100% - 40% he misses * 65% opponent hits him) By using disengage, the wizard has not only given up his action completely (i.e. done nothing for the round), but the damage to the party happening is only slightly less likely. Sure, the melee PCs have better AC, but that's probably only 4 or 5 better than the wizard. Hence, 75% to 80% of the time, the monster damage (or lack thereof) is the same, it's just on a different PC.

Shocking Grasp can often be used if the monster just mostly does damage (especially if it does not do a ton of damage). If the monster does more than damage (stun, disease, poison), then disengage makes a lot more sense. But the concept that the Wizard should never take damage or never engage monsters isn't always the best tactic.

There are times when that extra Shocking Grasp damage makes the difference between the monster going down before its next initiative and not. Even without that, having the Wizard not hang back and be protected and being hit once in a while is often OK. Not all wizards shy from melee (my current cleric 1 / necromancer 6 is often in melee range).


Btw, the entire T-Rex thing assumes that either T-Rexes are found in the campaign world, or that the DM doesn't rule that the PC Wizard has had to encounter a given creature in order to Polymorph someone into it. Polymorph is obviously overpowered in some circumstances (same for various Conjure spells like Conjure Animals if the caster is allowed to pick the exact creature he gets), so it is not unlikely that DMs would force a PC Wizard to at least research before using it. By the time he does (maybe a few levels after the PCs get to level 8), Polymorphing into a CR 8 creature may not be as strong as it was. Polymorphing an ally into a T-Rex (with an Int of 2 which the DM should enforce) at level 8 or 9 is no different of a tactic than Sleep is at first level. It has a fairly small level window of opportunity as an uber tactic.


As for Illusory Reality, yes it gives a decent small wall or whatever (15 foot cube, so on a diagonal, a 21 foot long wall), but Silent Image is still a concentration spell. At level 14, monsters can bust through concentration fairly easy (shy of having the Warcaster and/or other feats). Nice, but not quite as nice as you seemed to be making out in the podcast (i.e. "ultimate wizard ability"). Walls are cool and can really mess up action economy, but at those high levels, there are often a lot more going on than simple small moveable walls can control (15 foot tall, 21 foot long max). And Steve was mistaken, Wall of Stone is 5th level. Giving up 12 levels of some other wizard special abilities that the player likes (levels 2 through 13) for a different subclass (invoker, or abjurer, or diviner) in order to gain a special ability at level 14 is costly. The other illusionist special abilities are not that great.


By the way, I do agree with much of what you say, I just think that there isn't just one optimal way to play wizards (i.e. casters who rarely use spells with rolls involved and tend to use special tricks to avoid more typical game mechanics).

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I've played with guys like this. Guys that think "what's in the rules is what happens...I don't care what the DM says". They've been around forever (like this guy). I'm not trying to be mean, but he's learned this way and has always accepted it and managed to get his DM to accept it. If they are having fun, great, but to put out a "guide" with so-o many 'errors in application', it just needs to be called out. Anyway....

At around 15 minutes, he goes on to say that Minor Cantrip is the end-all and be-all. His example is cute (minor illusion of a box over a halfling assassin, with a hole in the side to "attack through" and a hole at about halfling-eye-level to see through), but its also a non-starter. The bad guy in the example, and Orog, doesn't have to use his action to try and see through it. He assumes that a hole big enough in the side for the halfling (the PC in the box) to attack through, as well as a slit big enough for the halfling to easily see through. If he had those, any DM worth his salt would rule the orog could see bit's and pieces of the halfling...meaning the halfling has "partial cover" at best. Also, and DM would also be fully justified in saying the orog has partial cover from the halfling as well; not just from the eye-slit, but from trying to wait and attack when the orog is in a good position that the halfling could attack without touching the box..., because as soon as he does that, everyone can see through it (re: it's been interacted with). The orog could simply step back 5' then "ready" his attack for when the halfling comes at him...or he could just take the disadvantage and swing anyway...or he could take a 5' step, then attack the other guy fighting him. This last one, if the halfling comes to get him, he looses all the benefits of that minor illusion.

His answer for his wizard being charged/targeted by a superior warrior/monster is.... Disengage. O_O Really? A wizard, deciding that the best idea to avoid a charging monster is to run away at double speed, back into the dungeon or out into the wilderness, away from all his other party members? Ooooo....kaaayyyy.... IME, wizards (or anyone, really) who does this better really know where he's going and why, or they are likely to be rolling up a new character.

And, of course, Polymorph. Of course he's going to completely IGNORE all the drawbacks to it. Primarily...a PC polymorphed into a T-Rex is no longer a PC! He's now a "monster". A T-Rex. He has ALL the stats of a T-Rex, with the attitude and general disposition of the original creature (PC). That's it. In the example, he makes the assumption that the T-Rex attacks the Death Slaad and 'fights to the death'. Again, any decent DM would weight all the factors and make reasonable decisions for the T-Rex. It may very well attack the Death Slaad...after all, if the PC was hit/hurt by it before the polymorph, it's "attitude and disposition" would be 'kill what is trying to kill me'. But, having such a feeble intellect now, and the animalistic drawbacks to being, well, an animal, gives the death Slaad all manner of outs to scare away the animal or cause it to attack the other PC's in the room.

Next suggestion he has, still on Polymorph, is stillborn as soon as it utters forth from his mouth; "Polymorph the Slaad, using Portent if you have to so it fails it's save". Uh, dude...you were quoting stats just minutes before; how on earth did you miss the FIRST special ability it has... Shapechanger? And, um, just fyi, under the Polymorph spell, it specifically says "Shapechangers automatically succeed in this save". The rest of his 'suggestions' amount to "Do this, as long as your DM is brain dead and you have no qualms about cheating".

And lastly, "Illusory Reality", the 14th level Illusionist class ability. He figures that if your wizard likes the whole battle-control aspect, that having Illusory Reality is the "ultimate wizard ability". Yup, the ability to create a 15' square wall of steel is "the ultimate wizard ability". Huh? Sorry, but a 15' wall is only going to be really useful is if you are running away down a 14' square corridor. Other than that....uh....I'm gonna have to say "nope".

*sigh* For someone who has supposedly played spellcasters for the last 35 years... I'm not impressed. Are people really that gullible to believe what he's saying?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Shadowdweller00]

As for the Shocking Grasp POV, it doesn't take into account balancing damage across the entire party. If the wizard takes the chance of using Shocking Grasp, there are three outcomes: he hits and gets away, he misses and gets hit back, he misses and he gets missed back. His odds of getting the first or third outcome tends to be about 75% or so (100% - 40% he misses * 65% opponent hits him) By using disengage, the wizard has not only given up his action completely (i.e. done nothing for the round), but the damage to the party happening is only slightly less likely. Sure, the melee PCs have better AC, but that's probably only 4 or 5 better than the wizard. Hence, 75% to 80% of the time, the monster damage (or lack thereof) is the same, it's just on a different PC.

I agree. I find that there are times when *gasp* it is even desirable for the Wizard to tank in most groups. There are also times where the reliability and high average damage of Shocking Grasp (due to the advantage mechanic against, for example, metal-wearing enemies) can be balanced against foes with predictable or survivable counter-damage.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

And, of course, Polymorph. Of course he's going to completely IGNORE all the drawbacks to it. Primarily...a PC polymorphed into a T-Rex is no longer a PC! He's now a "monster". A T-Rex. He has ALL the stats of a T-Rex, with the attitude and general disposition of the original creature (PC). That's it.

Not so much. The spell explicitly does not change the target's personality nor affect their memories...as interpreted through their new mental scores. It would take quite a stretch to presume that the PC might suddenly choose to eat those that they very well know are friends...presuming that the PC was not a fickle, backstabbing individual prior to the polymorph, of course.

 

[Leatherhead]

Advantage and disadvantage are huge boosts that shouldn't be handed out willy nilly with a cantrip.

That's the intended purpose of the (dis)Advantage mechanic: To be handed out willy-nilly. It streamlines combat and prevents people from pulling out every nitpicking thing they can thing to pile on the small bonuses. You don't even need anything as powerful as a cantrip to hand them out, everyone and their trained dog can grant it with the help action.

 

[Celtavian]

The illusion thing is a problem because anything that attacks the illusion goes right through it. Any creature can shoot or throw at the box, it will provide zero protection to whoever is inside it. I wouldn't provide disadvantage or advantage for more than one attack for someone hiding themselves in the box because once it was struck with a weapon or even touched the illusion is over. Minor illusion does not adjust to the environment. Once cast it is as it is. Once attacked, touched, or beat with Investigation, it is useless. Given a box and the Halfling occupy the same square, I don't know that I would give much of an advantage to a Halfling hiding in an illusory box that chose to attack given the box provides no real protection and still provides a clear target to strike against.

The polymorph I mostly allow. A polymorphed creature is still under the control of the polymorphyed PC. A low intelligence doesn't prevent monsters from attacking, it shouldn't prevent the PC from attacking...to the death if the PC desires. Polymorph is an extremely powerful spell, though I still prefer the giant ape to the T-rex.

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Many DMs do not allow Minor Illusion (not Minor Image) to create advantage or disadvantage since the spell itself does not give this property. Advantage and disadvantage are huge boosts that shouldn't be handed out willy nilly with a cantrip.

The logic is that being unseen provides advantage/disadvantage, and it stands to reason that if you can't see through an illusion, whatever is obscured behind it is unseen. That said, DM's are of course allowed to rule any way they want, and if they rule that the creature obscured behind an illusion isn't treated that way, then the example doesn't hold.

That's the thing with these examples, they are intended to get you thinking about what can be done, not what you necessarily should do in your own group. That's my intention with the guides as well. Spells (especially versatile ones like illusion spells) provide versatility, and this is most effective when you marry with ingenuity IMO.

The concept of "holes that the halfling can see through, but the monster cannot" and a "hole to attack out through" is a bit lame.

Nothing wrong with a solid box. But something wrong with a box that the halfling can see through but the monster cannot.[/QUOTE]I'm assuming you are saying the idea is cheesy rather than disputing that you should be able to see into a hole in a box that is at your knees. In which case, it's just an idea. It's not intended to be something you should either find a flaw with or do yourself, but instead get you thinking about how you might use minor illusion (which I realized after listening that I referred to incorrectly as "minor image" for the entire bit)

Also, nothing wrong with tactics like a halfling archer being behind a Minor Illusion before the encounter even starts which gives the halfling a chance to interact with the illusion so that he can see through it and can attack through it. But in combat, illusions should affect PCs the same as NPCs (shy of the spell stating otherwise).

It is a matter of positioning, rather than the illusion not "affecting PC's the same as NPC's", just as an illusionary 4' wall will affect a halfling archer and human archer differently, regardless of whether they are PC/NPC

Hence, 75% to 80% of the time, the monster damage (or lack thereof) is the same, it's just on a different PC.

Reaction attacks need to be triggered. If nobody else is moving out of melee, who else is triggering the attack? Normally if you disengage, the creature doesn't get a reaction attack on your allies either. The real question is whether the chance of doing cantrip damage is worth the chance of being hit by an attack. I would say that in most cases, the answer to the question is no.

Shocking Grasp can often be used if the monster just mostly does damage (especially if it does not do a ton of damage). If the monster does more than damage (stun, disease, poison), then disengage makes a lot more sense. But the concept that the Wizard should never take damage or never engage monsters isn't always the best tactic.

I try to avoid words like "always" since D&D is a game of circumstance. I like words like "usually" or "situational". However, you will take damage as a Wizard. Since you have fewer HP than your comrades, it makes sense to avoid it when you can IMO. Naturally, if you think the opponent is a few HP from going down, this might have you reconsider, but generally I recommend caution in wizard tactics.

Btw, the entire T-Rex thing assumes that either T-Rexes are found in the campaign world, or that the DM doesn't rule that the PC Wizard has had to encounter a given creature in order to Polymorph someone into it.

Of course. Again, I'm not saying that T-Rex is what you must do, only that mechanically, it provides the biggest bang for your buck when it is an option. If it's not an option, obviously you need to do something else that is. Again, just trying to get people thinking past "doing damage is all a wizard can do".

The conversation might be more in context if you listen to the Podcast I was replying to, where Steve suggests all a wizard is good at is doing damage.

Silent Image is still a concentration spell.

The tactic I'm recommending in the podcast is to cast the Silent Image, use Illusory Reality as a bonus action to make it real for one minute, then drop the concentration. This is why I like this tactic better than traditional wall spells that require you maintain concentration. Illusory Reality has its own duration (which is flat at one minute), independent of the spell it was modelled from.